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What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

The Day 1 competitors would have their practices on Day 0. But the Day 2 competitors would be practicing on Day 1, so you haven't solved any backlog on ice time - that's still 4 practices and 2 games.
Since you've worked in Event Management, you would know better than I. But I suppose the issues are: How long are the practices; and Are the timeslots flexible.

Summary of what I had in mind: Practices at 9:00AM, 10:30AM, 12Noon, 1:30PM. 60 Minute Countdown begins at 3:00 for 4:00PM Game. Game 2 at 8:00PM, or 60 minutes after the conclusion of Game 1; whichever comes later. Now if there's something wrong with that, I'm willing to learn. To my eye it's tightly scheduled, but doable.

Mariucci/Ridder can probably solve the locker room issue, but if you're suggesting that they can use Ridder for practices that won't fly especially since they are different size sheets.
Nope, not suggesting that. I'm knew the about the different dimensions, and understand that every team would need time on the 200x100 sheet. It did occur to me that if any coach deemed a 75 minute practice at Mariucci to be inadequate, he could request additional time on the 200x85 sheet. But if the games are going be at Mariucci, the main practices need to be as well.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

And now I'm bringing up another pet peeve that I have harped on for years in basketball. Who says it's supposed to be the "best" (insert #) teams? What's the point of having leagues, then? I laugh when, for example, because it's easier to illustrate, in America East (where BU was for many years), Albany just beat Stony Brook in the championship and the NCAA "auto" bid. Stony Brook has consistently been at the top of the league and in several championship games, and have never made the tournament. So a team who finishes seventh in the Big Ten deserves to go more? This is what I don't understand. There were SIX teams better in their own league, yet they get the nod over someone who may have actually won their league regular season (and lost in the league tournament). How is that fair? You might as well put them in Division 2, then. Let's just have a Division 1 "BCS" style league and rank the teams from 1 - 217 (or whatever it is). Forget the league. Just take the top 64. That's what you're saying. It's a TOURNAMENT - not a calculus problem. We don't have to "calculate" the top teams...let the teams that performed all year participate in the NCAA Tournament. In other words, I don't care if a team is ranked 35th. If they won their league REGULAR SEASON they deserve to go. If not, then move the entire league down to a lower division. Because you can only play who you play. That would eliminate all this ridiculous "criteria." You win on the ice, you move on. You don't, you go home. Simple.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

The point is that the tournament STARTED with eight teams.

No. No. No.

The tournament started with FOUR teams.

The committee was given the option to expand to add one or two extra teams starting in 1977. One extra was added in '77, '79, and '80. Two were added in 1978.

The field expanded to 8 only in 1981, when crossovers were instituted as stated before.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

And now I'm bringing up another pet peeve that I have harped on for years in basketball. Who says it's supposed to be the "best" (insert #) teams? What's the point of having leagues, then? I laugh when, for example, because it's easier to illustrate, in America East (where BU was for many years), Albany just beat Stony Brook in the championship and the NCAA "auto" bid. Stony Brook has consistently been at the top of the league and in several championship games, and have never made the tournament. So a team who finishes seventh in the Big Ten deserves to go more? This is what I don't understand. There were SIX teams better in their own league, yet they get the nod over someone who may have actually won their league regular season (and lost in the league tournament). How is that fair? You might as well put them in Division 2, then. Let's just have a Division 1 "BCS" style league and rank the teams from 1 - 217 (or whatever it is). Forget the league. Just take the top 64. That's what you're saying. It's a TOURNAMENT - not a calculus problem. We don't have to "calculate" the top teams...let the teams that performed all year participate in the NCAA Tournament. In other words, I don't care if a team is ranked 35th. If they won their league REGULAR SEASON they deserve to go. If not, then move the entire league down to a lower division. Because you can only play who you play. That would eliminate all this ridiculous "criteria." You win on the ice, you move on. You don't, you go home. Simple.

If you have a beef with the way leagues hand out their autobids, then you should complain to the individual leagues. That is not the NCAA's decision, and in no way should any league ever get multiple autobids.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

No. No. No.

The tournament started with FOUR teams.

The committee was given the option to expand to add one or two extra teams starting in 1977. One extra was added in '77, '79, and '80. Two were added in 1978.

The field expanded to 8 only in 1981, when crossovers were instituted as stated before.

I'm talking about the ECAC tournament (as I just illustrated). I'm using one part of the country to illustrate my point (you can double it, OK?) Like an enantiomer....East => West. West => East.

<b>EDIT</b>: The OLD ECAC Tournament (as you can tell by the years and games I cited)
 
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Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

And, to re iterate, i don't want demanded cross over. I want the committee to use their judgment to make it likely that there will be good draws to both my West and East Regionals.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

Well, I have to admit that Ferris, Merrimack and Union are a little on the small side. Harvard too, although I would think finding an alternate site would be doable in Boston, if desired. My thinking was that 3,000 might be an appropriate threshold. Have to admit that Clarkson and Quinnipiac barely meet that standard. So it's probably more accurate to say that you'd expect 1-2 small rinks per playoff season, as opposed to my original guess of 0-1. That's not really different enough to change my mind. But it is a little more of an issue than I thought.

Thanks for gathering those numbers, btw.
I think 3500 or even 4000 is a better threshold. My reasoning: the average first day attendance for the last five years (20 regionals) is 5889, which of course is two first round games. If we just divide in half, we get 3000, your number. But in pretty much every one of those regionals the crowd attractiveness of the two games wasn’t equal; if I estimate the crowd was divided 60-40, and multiply by .6, I get 3533 as a reasonable expected crowd size. And if the fact that the home rink, rather than a regional site that may be quite distant, increases the attendance even more, you could have crowds of 4000.

And of course moving to different site in the event the rink is too small just exacerbates the competitive advantage that the big programs already have; they get a home rink game regardless, but the smaller programs don’t.

... But even more to the point, ask the players and coaches. Would you rather play one of the most important games of the season in front of a loud, sellout crowd of 2,100? Even if most of the 2,100 were hostile? Or would you rather play in a scrimmage atmosphere, in a larger but mostly empty building? As long as the home ice advantage was earned over the course of the season, I'm confident the answer would be drop the puck, let's play in front of the crowd.
Well, if you frame it that way, probably. If you ask the question: “Would you rather have the regionals in a neutral site in a large arena that may not be filled or a packed home rink?” I think the answer would be different.

A decidedly pro-format change article published after last year’s regionals : http://www.uscho.com/2014/04/05/com...till-time-to-try-something-new/#ixzz3VQETv0SO
said:
“Our preference, since about 2008, was for neutral sites with NHL-sized sheets,” Fasbender said. “And that’s how we divide it up with venues. [Coaches] would prefer it would be NHL rinks since that’s what the Frozen Four is played on.”

Second, neutral sites have produced parity and improbable upsets over the years. Bemidji State over Notre Dame. Rochester Institute of Technology over New Hampshire. Holy Cross over Minnesota. The games are etched into NCAA tournament lore.

But it’s hard to find consensus in the coaching community to change the format when lower-seeded teams may be denied a level playing field.
(emphasis mine)

I read this to say that the coaches as a group (not just the name brand coaches who get quoted a lot) prefer neutral sites.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

If you have a beef with the way leagues hand out their autobids, then you should complain to the individual leagues. That is not the NCAA's decision, and in no way should any league ever get multiple autobids.

??????? NOT "autobids." Selecting the 7th team in the Big 10 is not an AUTOBID...it's a committee decision. I'm saying that a 2nd place team in a Division 1 league should be given as much consideration as a 89th place team in a 90 team league (because apparently I am confusing people). I don't care how "good" the league is. Because if your league isn't "good enough" to get you in when you finish second, then the entire league should just be dropped from Division 1.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

Since you've worked in Event Management, you would know better than I. But I suppose the issues are: How long are the practices; and Are the timeslots flexible.

Summary of what I had in mind: Practices at 9:00AM, 10:30AM, 12Noon, 1:30PM. 60 Minute Countdown begins at 3:00 for 4:00PM Game. Game 2 at 8:00PM, or 60 minutes after the conclusion of Game 1; whichever comes later. Now if there's something wrong with that, I'm willing to learn. To my eye it's tightly scheduled, but doable.

That wouldn't permit any pre-game skate for the teams playing that day, not sure how many of the coaches would be pleased with that.

That's also a lot of stress on the ice surface, which in an NCAA regional site is already compromised by the addition of extra/different in-ice logos. The ice for that second game would be pretty bad, and that's certainly not ideal for an NCAA tournament. You can't do a lot of dry cuts to clean up the surface either.

I'd be even more concerned on the next day when you add in the next round of practices and games into the equation. That's a big reason why basketball formats don't equate well, since the court doesn't need maintenance the same way an ice sheet does.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

??????? NOT "autobids." Selecting the 7th team in the Big 10 is not an AUTOBID...it's a committee decision. I'm saying that a 2nd place team in a Division 1 league should be given as much consideration as a 89th place team in a 90 team league (because apparently I am confusing people). I don't care how "good" the league is. Because if your league isn't "good enough" to get you in when you finish second, then the entire league should just be dropped from Division 1.
But it is the schools in the league, not the league, that makes that choice. Many DII schools have moved up to DI (Hello, UMass Lowell) and their is nothing the NCAA can do about it, as long as they follow the rules. You would have to ask the schools why they would prefer to be a small fish in DI vs a big fish in DII (UMass Lowell has won 15 NCAA DII Championships. Does anyone think they will be winning any DI Championships?).

Sean
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

That wouldn't permit any pre-game skate for the teams playing that day, not sure how many of the coaches would be pleased with that.

That's also a lot of stress on the ice surface, which in an NCAA regional site is already compromised by the addition of extra/different in-ice logos. The ice for that second game would be pretty bad, and that's certainly not ideal for an NCAA tournament. You can't do a lot of dry cuts to clean up the surface either.

I'd be even more concerned on the next day when you add in the next round of practices and games into the equation. That's a big reason why basketball formats don't equate well, since the court doesn't need maintenance the same way an ice sheet does.
Good stuff; thanks for the reply.

Couple More Questions: Under the current regional format, do the participating teams get both a full practice and a morning skate before their first game? If yes, is it acceptable to have one of those sessions on a different ice sheet, provided the rink dimensions were the same?
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

That wouldn't permit any pre-game skate for the teams playing that day, not sure how many of the coaches would be pleased with that.

That's also a lot of stress on the ice surface, which in an NCAA regional site is already compromised by the addition of extra/different in-ice logos. The ice for that second game would be pretty bad, and that's certainly not ideal for an NCAA tournament. You can't do a lot of dry cuts to clean up the surface either.

I'd be even more concerned on the next day when you add in the next round of practices and games into the equation. That's a big reason why basketball formats don't equate well, since the court doesn't need maintenance the same way an ice sheet does.
All good points, coach. I like the idea, but it may just not be feasible.

As a fan I went to the 6 team regionals because 1) there was only one regional in my area, 2) I wasn't going to travel west if BU went west (and BU used to host the Worcester regional), 3) I knew I would see good hockey, 4) all the games were not shown on local TV. Now with 2 local regionals I wait to see if and where BU goes. When they are in east I go to that regional; when they are west I stay home and watch on TV; and when they are not in the tournament I have also stayed home to watch as many games as possible.

Based on my experience televising all the games nationally on ESPN channels (and my getting ESPNU) is why I don't attend a regional in person unless BU is there. So maybe the answer is have all the games at the same time on Saturday and Sunday. That would reduce the number of live games shown on ESPN channels and could increase local attendance.

Sean
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

??????? NOT "autobids." Selecting the 7th team in the Big 10 is not an AUTOBID...it's a committee decision. I'm saying that a 2nd place team in a Division 1 league should be given as much consideration as a 89th place team in a 90 team league (because apparently I am confusing people). I don't care how "good" the league is. Because if your league isn't "good enough" to get you in when you finish second, then the entire league should just be dropped from Division 1.

Which team is not getting "consideration"? Every single team in Division 1 hockey gets "consideration". They're all ranked in the PWR. If it too hard to comprehend that the 6th team in an 8 team conference could be better than the 2nd in a 10 team conference, then that is an issue with your intellect and not the selection process. There is no issue with the selection criteria as it is. It is fair. It is just. Every single team knows what the criteria is going in, they know it when they plan their non-conference schedules, and they know it when they jockey for spots in new conferences. If a team thinks they got screwed, I have 2 suggestions: 1) Win more games 2) Schedule tougher competition, then win those games. All teams have an equal shot.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

If attendance at the regionals is really a major concern (not saying it shouldn't be, but I don't know how high of a priority it actually is for the NCAA or participants), the only way you resolve it is home games. We're caught in a travel buzzsaw this time of year. If I go to the conference tournament, can I afford to go to the regionals? And if we get through the regionals, can I afford the Frozen Four? And how many days can I get off work, particularly if I was taking off some Friday afternoons during the regular season? The bottom line is that you can't expect a fan base to show up to all of these, but if you give some teams a home game or games, you can count on those teams pretty much filling up their arenas.
I think this is spot on. If improving attendance, and probably more important atmosphere, is a priority than it is clear what needs to be done.

While I don't personally have anything against the "convention" or "destination" regional approach, I don't think expanding the size of the regional is going to make it more feasible for people to travel. More games, the same or more days of travel - this translates to money and time off work. These seem to be the biggest hindrances to attendance in our current format. So doing nothing to alleviate those hindrances (and arguably inflating them) doesn't strike me as a good approach.

It also does nothing to eliminate home advantage that is not tied to seed in those first rounds.

For me, regional attendance isn't that big of a deal, particularly in a situation like this year's South Bend regional where the tickets are already sold, so it's not going to be a huge money loser. If there's no crowd there, that arguably provides a truer test of who's the better team. There's nothing quite as "neutral" as no fan involvement at all! But if you think regional attendance is a big deal, you're going to having to be willing to sacrifice things like bracket integrity, travel convenience, or a level playing field to get there.
Again, spot on in recognizing that sacrifices have to be made. But that is true regardless of the format...something gets sacrificed.

I think at the crux of this is something you also alluded to, which is priorities are different for different people. Some people want to have great game-day atmosphere. Some want zero home advantage. Some want to see the best opportunity for upsets. Some want to see high-seeded teams rewarded for their season. Some want it to be easy to travel to all the games. Some want to be able to sit at home and watch every game of the tournament. It's not possible to meet all of these desires, and so priorities and sacrifices are necessary. At the end of the day, I think something most of us agree on is that the current format isn't doing as good of a job as it could to strike a balance, prioritize and sacrifice in order to create the best tournament.
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

I think 3500 or even 4000 is a better threshold. My reasoning: the average first day attendance for the last five years (20 regionals) is 5889, which of course is two first round games. If we just divide in half, we get 3000, your number. But in pretty much every one of those regionals the crowd attractiveness of the two games wasn’t equal; if I estimate the crowd was divided 60-40, and multiply by .6, I get 3533 as a reasonable expected crowd size. And if the fact that the home rink, rather than a regional site that may be quite distant, increases the attendance even more, you could have crowds of 4000.
I think there are some nuances that are being overlooked.
- Currently, first day at the regional is sold as a session pass (1 ticket = 2 games). Those attendance numbers are attendance to the session. Meaning you are drawing from 4 fan bases to get that 5889. Actual butts in seats for each individual game is considerably less than total attendance. This is why most regionals report a lower attendance for the 2nd day despite the arena looking more full than it did for either of the first-round games. In actuality, using the attendance figure you have found, the number of fans PER TEAM in the first round is under 1500.

EDIT: Going back and rereading your post I see I misunderstood and you were acknowledging that those attendance numbers were for 2 games. It doesn't change my final point here. Admittedly, an on-campus first round would make it more difficult for the visitor's fans, but final attendance numbers would not be affected as home fans would surely pick up the slack.

- Second, you have to operate under the assumption that in the majority of cases, teams that have a large fan base that travels for the current regionals also have larger home rinks, and vice versa. This is of course not always the case, but generally speaking it is.

I haven't gone back to look at exact attendance numbers for each day of the past regionals. I would have assumed 5,000 a day on average. But coming closer to what you have found for 1st day attendance, let's say 5,500 a day on average for both days of the regional.
5500 a day x 2 days at each site x 4 sites = 44,000.
Using the data I posted yesterday, the smallest crowds an on-campus first round could have accommodated in the last 10 years is 42,804. That was in 2011, a year when half of the top 8 played in a rink that seated less than 3500 (MIA-3200 MER-2549 YA-3486 UNi-2225).

And of course moving to different site in the event the rink is too small just exacerbates the competitive advantage that the big programs already have; they get a home rink game regardless, but the smaller programs don’t.
I don't think there would be any need to set a minimum capacity threshold. The only schools that would pose serious attendance issues are all in Atlantic Hockey; and as I said yesterday, until the formula for ranking the teams changes or Atlantic Hockey makes an incredibly large imporevement on a conference-wide scale, that just isn't going to be an issue.
 
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Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

??????? NOT "autobids." Selecting the 7th team in the Big 10 is not an AUTOBID...it's a committee decision. I'm saying that a 2nd place team in a Division 1 league should be given as much consideration as a 89th place team in a 90 team league (because apparently I am confusing people). I don't care how "good" the league is. Because if your league isn't "good enough" to get you in when you finish second, then the entire league should just be dropped from Division 1.

So how would a league join Division I? Would this be on a sport-by-sport basis? So you'd have each college with sports at a variety of divisions?


Powers &8^]
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

So how would a league join Division I? Would this be on a sport-by-sport basis? So you'd have each college with sports at a variety of divisions?


Powers &8^]

Promotion and relegation. ;)
 
Re: What if the Committee Decides to Makes Changes to the Tournament Design?

I think 3500 or even 4000 is a better threshold. My reasoning: the average first day attendance for the last five years (20 regionals) is 5889, which of course is two first round games. If we just divide in half, we get 3000, your number. But in pretty much every one of those regionals the crowd attractiveness of the two games wasn’t equal; if I estimate the crowd was divided 60-40, and multiply by .6, I get 3533 as a reasonable expected crowd size. And if the fact that the home rink, rather than a regional site that may be quite distant, increases the attendance even more, you could have crowds of 4000.
If the goal is to get every interested person into the building -- or at least everyone who's currently attending -- a threshold of 4,000 does make sense. But while that's an honorable objective, it's not inevitably the top priority. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some of the regional games become a genuinely tough ticket. That would inject a lot of positive energy into an event that's been seriously lacking in that department. I will say that if it got to the point where season ticket holders were being shut out of their own building, I'd join you in taking exception.

And of course moving to a different site in the event the rink is too small just exacerbates the competitive advantage that the big programs already have; they get a home rink game regardless, but the smaller programs don’t.
For this last reason, I'm starting to rethink the whole idea of a minimum threshold. If you earn a position in top 8, maybe you've earned the right to host, no exceptions.

Naturally I'd let the small school voluntarily move to a larger facility. Maybe I'd even let the NCAA try to persuade the smaller school to do the same, given appropriate circumstances. But if a school opts for: Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home -- who are the rest of us to say otherwise? And even if ticket revenue takes a hit, wouldn't eliminating the costs associated with hosting off-campus usually be enough to offset that?

... I read this to say that the coaches as a group (not just the name brand coaches who get quoted a lot) prefer neutral sites.
You could be right. Naturally coaches will favor anything they perceive gives their team an edge, or at least cancels out a disadvantage. And if a majority of the coaches actually feel this way, that factor certainly needs to be taken into account. But other constituencies have legitimate concerns too. Including, dare I say it, ticket buying fans. Wouldn't you agree that the fans' verdict on the status quo, at least at Western sites, is an overwhelming thumbs down?
 
I didn't say anything about an "expanded" format. I'm talking WAY before then (you know, 1970s?) "East was East and West was West and never the twain shall meet" - Gene Pitney

For example...after quarterfinal games in home rinks of higher-seeded teams...

<u>Quarterfinals - March 8, 1977</u>
Clarkson 6 - Providence 3
UNH 4 - Brown 3
Cornell 7 - RPI 5
BU 8 - BC 7

(last time I checked all these teams were from the EAST, but maybe you know geography better than I)

<u>Semi-Finals at Boston Garden - March 11, 1977</u>
UNH 10 - Cornell 9 (2 OT)
BU 7 - Clarkson 6

<u>Finals at Boston Garden - March 12, 1977</u>
BU 8 - UNH 6 - Championship
Cornell 5 - Clarkson 4 - Consolation

Got it yet?

March 11, 1977 never happened. I've erased that date from history.

Seriously - I wish the conference tournaments had more meaning. Imagine if only one representative per conference? Everyone would be on the edge of their seats for every game.

However, because of the money involved, it will never happen. But if it did, we'd have more conferences! :)
 
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