Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

[SJHovey]

I don't have any spoilers to post, but I agree with Shirtless that we could use a Westworld thread where we are free to discuss episodes without ruining it for people who haven't seen all the episodes.

I do have a non-spoiler related questions. Has anyone read the book? If so, how does the current series compare in terms of the story?

I saw the early 70's movie, but that was years ago and is night and day compared to this series. Just wondering if the book is worth a read.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

So now that we know Bernard is a bot (wouldn't call him a Host per se), and that Ford has been manipulating (some) things from the very start, how far can they take this? Will we see Elsie (last seen investigating the satellite signal) and Theresa (last seen bleeding out from her head onto a wall) show up as bots to cover their disappearances/assumed murders? I'm willing to bet that the Host being built during Theresa's murder is her own replacement.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I'm still waiting for the reveal that William is the MIB and that whole thing is a different timeline from 30+ years ago.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I'm still waiting for the reveal that William is the MIB and that whole thing is a different timeline from 30+ years ago.

I don't think that's the case at all. The way William treats Dolores is so very different than the way the MIB treats her. While William could change in character over the years, MIB's treatment of her just doesn't jive. For William to change like that, it would be akin to some sort of growing hatred of her and the park as a whole. The MIB enjoys the park, doesn't want to leave, but he shows it in so many different ways than William does. If anything, the MIB reminds me more of an older Logan (Williams BIL-to-be, assuming I got the name right).

 

[SJHovey]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I don't think that's the case at all. The way William treats Dolores is so very different than the way the MIB treats her. While William could change in character over the years, MIB's treatment of her just doesn't jive. For William to change like that, it would be akin to some sort of growing hatred of her and the park as a whole. The MIB enjoys the park, doesn't want to leave, but he shows it in so many different ways than William does. If anything, the MIB reminds me more of an older Logan (Williams BIL-to-be, assuming I got the name right).

I keep going back to William's first appearance on the show, when he has to go through and pick his outfit. He is lead into the hat room and told he needs to pick between a white hat and a black hat. He chooses the white, of course. Somewhere we have to come back to that.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I keep going back to William's first appearance on the show, when he has to go through and pick his outfit. He is lead into the hat room and told he needs to pick between a white hat and a black hat. He chooses the white, of course. Somewhere we have to come back to that.

Granted I agree with some of what St. Clown says about the last episode adding more questions. But I'm definitely convinced the William timeline is occurring when the MIB claims he started going to the park. It's possible that William isn't the MIB, but it still seems like he'll get there. He has changed so much already, 30+ years of going and interacting with these people can make someone awfully jaded. I think whatever company he's marrying into is what has given him a chance to be such a powerful man that people would thank him for his efforts in the real world.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

Granted I agree with some of what St. Clown says about the last episode adding more questions. But I'm definitely convinced the William timeline is occurring when the MIB claims he started going to the park. It's possible that William isn't the MIB, but it still seems like he'll get there. He has changed so much already, 30+ years of going and interacting with these people can make someone awfully jaded. I think whatever company he's marrying into is what has given him a chance to be such a powerful man that people would thank him for his efforts in the real world.

William is MIB 30 years earlier, I am completely convinced. Or Logan is, I still think that is possible. They're definitely 30 years before the "current" time.

Also, if we're thinking that Theresa's replacement was being made by Ford in his secret lab, that leads to the question, did he do the same thing with Arnold? If so, who is Arnold? Bernard?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

William is MIB 30 years earlier, I am completely convinced. Or Logan is, I still think that is possible. They're definitely 30 years before the "current" time.

Also, if we're thinking that Theresa's replacement was being made by Ford in his secret lab, that leads to the question, did he do the same thing with Arnold? If so, who is Arnold? Bernard?

If he did the same thing to Arnold, I would wager that he turned him into the narrative writer who got drunk at the on-site resort. It would be some sort of exacting revenge on the man, keeping him in a position of power yet still be a person of great consternation to Arnold, for a reason we can guess at now but not having yet been given the full account.

It may yet turn out that Ford himself is a bot, a living legacy of sorts to himself, with his bodied buried somewhere in the park. (Wild, wild speculation on that piece there.)

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

If he did the same thing to Arnold, I would wager that he turned him into the narrative writer who got drunk at the on-site resort. It would be some sort of exacting revenge on the man, keeping him in a position of power yet still be a person of great consternation to Arnold, for a reason we can guess at now but not having yet been given the full account.

It may yet turn out that Ford himself is a bot, a living legacy of sorts to himself, with his bodied buried somewhere in the park. (Wild, wild speculation on that piece there.)

I think Ford being a bot makes plenty of sense on so many levels, especially the ease at which he controls so many of them with just his words. That seems nearly impossible without some physiological connection to them...

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I think Ford being a bot makes plenty of sense on so many levels, especially the ease at which he controls so many of them with just his words. That seems nearly impossible without some physiological connection to them...

At this point, I think it more likely that everybody except for Ford is a host (don't like "bot") than that he is a host himself. He might be the only person, pulling everyone's strings.

 

[SJHovey]

At this point, I think it more likely that everybody except for Ford is a host (don't like "bot") than that he is a host himself. He might be the only person, pulling everyone's strings.

We've seen pictures of Ford as a younger man, so we know he is aging. Plus the "Ford as a young boy" bot living in the cabin means we'd have two Ford bots if the old man is also a bot.

We also know certain characters are human since they couldn't be killed when shot.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

I will subscribe, but I probably won't read until I'm caught up. I want to discuss but I'm not going in a thread that has spoilers... :-/

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

Regarding the challenge that Bernard couldn't have worked at WW in his current form for 30 years without drawing the attention of another human thereby suggesting there are no humans working at WW: It wouldn't be that outrageous for "Bernard" to have been at WW in his current aged state for 30 years without being noticed by other humans. How many people have you worked with for 30 straight years? Hell 10+ years?

William might not be the MIB - it could be Logan.

The 2 timelines theory still remains unchallenged although it would be a great 'twist' if it ends up being untrue with how many people see it as a probability.

From the moment of, "What door?" until the very end of the episode was very chilling and masterfully done. Hopkins has still got it and then some.

Did anyone notice Bernard looking at a photo that appeared as though it should have 3 people in it - young Ford on the left, his father in the middle and _____ missing person in the blank space on the right? Suggesting Bernard is Arnold in bot form and programmed not to be aware of his former self.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

btw dx asked about the "steam shovels" from EP 4 - Could that be the digging out of the maze? I don't recall if that was happening right there in full view of anyone that would be at the restaurant or if Ford had taken Theresa somewhere further out into the park, but it came across my mind as a theory. Even if it was out of sight to anyone else I doubt it's the maze (if one exists) because one I doubt Ford would reveal it and two I think it would already have had to have been completed at that moment since so many characters had already started seeking it out.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

btw dx asked about the "steam shovels" from EP 4 - Could that be the digging out of the maze? I don't recall if that was happening right there in full view of anyone that would be at the restaurant or if Ford had taken Theresa somewhere further out into the park, but it came across my mind as a theory. Even if it was out of sight to anyone else I doubt it's the maze (if one exists) because one I doubt Ford would reveal it and two I think it would already have had to have been completed at that moment since so many characters had already started seeking it out.

It is not the maze. The maze was Arnold's creation. The steam shovel work is due to Fords new narrative, which, at this point, we have very little info.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

Regarding the challenge that Bernard couldn't have worked at WW in his current form for 30 years without drawing the attention of another human thereby suggesting there are no humans working at WW: It wouldn't be that outrageous for "Bernard" to have been at WW in his current aged state for 30 years without being noticed by other humans. How many people have you worked with for 30 straight years? Hell 10+ years?

William might not be the MIB - it could be Logan.

The 2 timelines theory still remains unchallenged although it would be a great 'twist' if it ends up being untrue with how many people see it as a probability.

From the moment of, "What door?" until the very end of the episode was very chilling and masterfully done. Hopkins has still got it and then some.

Did anyone notice Bernard looking at a photo that appeared as though it should have 3 people in it - young Ford on the left, his father in the middle and _____ missing person in the blank space on the right? Suggesting Bernard is Arnold in bot form and programmed not to be aware of his former self.

So the bots and hosts are all programmed not to see a variety of things that would cause them confusion or distress regarding their existence. In this case, Bernard might not have seen Arnold, but that doesn't necessarily mean Bernard is Arnold. Arnold could be a 6'5" albino for all we know.

As to Ford having not aged, people would notice when the company's executives or key employees because they get put into corporate news letter and shareholder announcements. It's possible for Bernard to slink by without people noticing a static visage, but Ford would have to create regular body updates, or replacement bodies with data transfers between bodies, making it appear that he ages.

And what I just proposed is far too convoluted for it to make a good TV narrative, though probable for a real-life scenario to unfold.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

Not sure where Ford not aging came from. Clearly he has as evidenced by the aforementioned photo.

And Bernard not seeing (possibly) an image of Arnold doesn't de facto indicate he is his recreation but it gives the theory legs.

 

[unofan]

Not sure where Ford not aging came from. Clearly he has as evidenced by the aforementioned photo.

And Bernard not seeing (possibly) an image of Arnold doesn't de facto indicate he is his recreation but it gives the theory legs.

Wouldn't others recognize him as Arnold, then?

I mean, people would presumably know who Arnold was and what he looked like. Simply renaming him Bernard wouldn't do a whole lot.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Westworld (WITH SPOILERS!!)

Not sure where Ford not aging came from. Clearly he has as evidenced by the aforementioned photo.

And Bernard not seeing (possibly) an image of Arnold doesn't de facto indicate he is his recreation but it gives the theory legs.

I'm not saying Ford has always been one, created by Arnold or something...I'm thinking at a certain point ford realized he wouldn't live forever so he created his own replacement.

 

[Slap Shot]

Wouldn't others recognize him as Arnold, then?

I mean, people would presumably know who Arnold was and what he looked like. Simply renaming him Bernard wouldn't do a whole lot.

He could have used a different looking form. My sticking point for Bernard=Arnold is why recreate your friend at all if he's not going to carry with him your memories together? I lean more toward Bernard is not Arnold but it's been a widely speculated theory on the web.