Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
The "minion hosts" are creepy as hell.
The "minion hosts" are creepy as hell.
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Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
- Thread starter dxmnkd316
- Start date
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Only through E3 so I stopped reading somewhere on Page 1. I was hesitant to start S2 because S1 was so nearly perfect (a bit of hyperbole perhaps) and I didn't think S2 could be anything but a letdown. And to be honest I hated how it all started, but S2 has been a slow climb to the top as of E3 and there is so, so, so much going on it's a treat to watch.
I was a bit miffed at the scene between Dolores and Maeve in E2. These characters have hardly interacted at (not missed as in not yet shown but in never actually materialized) yet the tried to portray so much more in that scene. Then just like they pass each other by as if, "meh".
I love puzzles, but this show is at its best with dramatic tension, character development and deeply enriched themes cascading through nearly every spoken word. I hope they never forsake that.
The does take itself too seriously at times - especially with Delores - but E3 had a decent amount of levity. I am encouraged S2 will be more like S1 and less like LOTR/The Hobbit which is where I was sure it was headed early on.
Can't wait for E4.
Only through E3 so I stopped reading somewhere on Page 1. I was hesitant to start S2 because S1 was so nearly perfect (a bit of hyperbole perhaps) and I didn't think S2 could be anything but a letdown. And to be honest I hated how it all started, but S2 has been a slow climb to the top as of E3 and there is so, so, so much going on it's a treat to watch.
I was a bit miffed at the scene between Dolores and Maeve in E2. These characters have hardly interacted at (not missed as in not yet shown but in never actually materialized) yet the tried to portray so much more in that scene. Then just like they pass each other by as if, "meh".
I love puzzles, but this show is at its best with dramatic tension, character development and deeply enriched themes cascading through nearly every spoken word. I hope they never forsake that.
The does take itself too seriously at times - especially with Delores - but E3 had a decent amount of levity. I am encouraged S2 will be more like S1 and less like LOTR/The Hobbit which is where I was sure it was headed early on.
Can't wait for E4.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Delores is definitely the most dangerous invitation to lazy, comic book style writing. So far they have not succumbed to the temptation and hopefully the writers are completely isolated from Hollywood, LA, the media, the fans, and the Other Nolan.
They're forced to interact with Abrams and that hasn't dumbed it down yet, so that's a good sign.
Delores is definitely the most dangerous invitation to lazy, comic book style writing. So far they have not succumbed to the temptation and hopefully the writers are completely isolated from Hollywood, LA, the media, the fans, and the Other Nolan.
They're forced to interact with Abrams and that hasn't dumbed it down yet, so that's a good sign.
D
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Guest
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
I really prefer Maeve to Dolores. She’s much more bad *** and less preachy. I get sick of the monologues from Dolores
I really prefer Maeve to Dolores. She’s much more bad *** and less preachy. I get sick of the monologues from Dolores
state of hockey
He fixes the cable?
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Rinko Kikuchi was effing awesome.
Rinko Kikuchi was effing awesome.
MinnesotaNorthStar
Minding the gap
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
While I like Dolores' character overall, the monologues are getting to be like Dany's in Game of Thrones. Way too many of them, and honestly, I don't see them serving any purpose to the story.
Maeve is awesome. They nailed the casting with Thandie Newton.
I loved the part when all the Westworld hosts recognized "themselves" during the brothel robbery.
While I like Dolores' character overall, the monologues are getting to be like Dany's in Game of Thrones. Way too many of them, and honestly, I don't see them serving any purpose to the story.
Maeve is awesome. They nailed the casting with Thandie Newton.
I loved the part when all the Westworld hosts recognized "themselves" during the brothel robbery.
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
While that part was fun, it didn't work with the plot.
Lee said at the beginning of the episode that Shogun world was for the guest that were advanced, and wanted something more brutal, and more difficult than Westworld. So, given that, how was Lee able to copy the exact same plot and quest from the most basic, beginner area of Westworld?
Also, I was correct on the unknown woman being William's daughter. That one was pretty easy to figure out.
I loved the part when all the Westworld hosts recognized "themselves" during the brothel robbery.
While that part was fun, it didn't work with the plot.
Lee said at the beginning of the episode that Shogun world was for the guest that were advanced, and wanted something more brutal, and more difficult than Westworld. So, given that, how was Lee able to copy the exact same plot and quest from the most basic, beginner area of Westworld?
Also, I was correct on the unknown woman being William's daughter. That one was pretty easy to figure out.
MavHockey14
New member
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Finally got through 4.5. Wow. Maeve is a BAD *** and I’m with you guys, she’s my favorite.
Finally got through 4.5. Wow. Maeve is a BAD *** and I’m with you guys, she’s my favorite.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Strongly disagree. I loved that and thought it was the first time S2 truly rose to the level of S1.
2.5 had some very good parts -- the exploration of the narratives from inside by Mauve and outside by the writer (Lee?) still has a lot of juice in it. And "That." is one of the funniest lines in the entire show. It also had lazy parts -- the gratuitous chase-y scenes and the fight scenes For The Kids. They definitely decided to pump up the volume and the violence for S2 to try to expand the appeal beyond the cerebral, and that's commercially understandable as long as they don't leave behind the whole point.
Delores' scene with Teddy was perfectly logical and predictable for her -- she is making all the classic mistakes of the Tragic Leader Under Stress, and I can't help suspecting her character is becoming satire, maybe (probably) without the actress' even realizing it. I am growing to genuinely despise Delores -- we are watching the creation of a monster and being given every chance to be seduced into justifying and even applauding it -- so her presentation as all things bright and beautiful is delightfully morbid and creepy.
Still a great show. We can't expect a repeat of S1's originality and brilliance, that was lightning in a bottle. But it's still very solid and workmanlike and sometimes as with the parallelism it can still hit the high notes.
Strongly disagree. I loved that and thought it was the first time S2 truly rose to the level of S1.
2.5 had some very good parts -- the exploration of the narratives from inside by Mauve and outside by the writer (Lee?) still has a lot of juice in it. And "That." is one of the funniest lines in the entire show. It also had lazy parts -- the gratuitous chase-y scenes and the fight scenes For The Kids. They definitely decided to pump up the volume and the violence for S2 to try to expand the appeal beyond the cerebral, and that's commercially understandable as long as they don't leave behind the whole point.
Delores' scene with Teddy was perfectly logical and predictable for her -- she is making all the classic mistakes of the Tragic Leader Under Stress, and I can't help suspecting her character is becoming satire, maybe (probably) without the actress' even realizing it. I am growing to genuinely despise Delores -- we are watching the creation of a monster and being given every chance to be seduced into justifying and even applauding it -- so her presentation as all things bright and beautiful is delightfully morbid and creepy.
Still a great show. We can't expect a repeat of S1's originality and brilliance, that was lightning in a bottle. But it's still very solid and workmanlike and sometimes as with the parallelism it can still hit the high notes.
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D
Deutsche Gopher Fan
Guest
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Huh. I’d been expecting that all season so I wasn’t surprised.
Overall I found this ep fairly boring
Huh. I’d been expecting that all season so I wasn’t surprised.
Overall I found this ep fairly boring
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
It was telegraphed from a mile away, yeah, but still. It didn't rely on the bang, wham dumbf-ckery crutch of the prior one. I liked it. Quieter is better.
I also enjoyed If It's Not Scottish It's Crap. He should make some fun caustic relief.
For a moment there, I was really, really worried they were going to betray me with the Man in Black. When he smiled at her I turned to my wife and said "what is that sh-t?" So her waking up alone was extremely satisfying. I can tolerate their dynamic if it is poisonous and rancid. Otherwise I see no point in Princess Leia on Horseback. Anyway, once they made the save Dr. Mrs. turned to me and said, "Did you really not see that coming? It was obvious."
I was duly chastened and turned on.
One quibble. "There's no time" to turn his pain down? It takes one Tinder swipe on his tablet. Nice scene but come on don't sell so cheap.
It was telegraphed from a mile away, yeah, but still. It didn't rely on the bang, wham dumbf-ckery crutch of the prior one. I liked it. Quieter is better.
I also enjoyed If It's Not Scottish It's Crap. He should make some fun caustic relief.
For a moment there, I was really, really worried they were going to betray me with the Man in Black. When he smiled at her I turned to my wife and said "what is that sh-t?" So her waking up alone was extremely satisfying. I can tolerate their dynamic if it is poisonous and rancid. Otherwise I see no point in Princess Leia on Horseback. Anyway, once they made the save Dr. Mrs. turned to me and said, "Did you really not see that coming? It was obvious."
I was duly chastened and turned on.
One quibble. "There's no time" to turn his pain down? It takes one Tinder swipe on his tablet. Nice scene but come on don't sell so cheap.
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bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Well, I don't think that William's daughter (Emily) is that pointless.
It is pretty obvious that (speculation in white) she is a host, and either William created her to replace his daughter, or Ford created her to torture/test William.
Well, I don't think that William's daughter (Emily) is that pointless.
It is pretty obvious that (speculation in white) she is a host, and either William created her to replace his daughter, or Ford created her to torture/test William.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
I'm not saying she is pointless. I'm saying turning her and William into the 72,863rd recapitulation of the Old Man Finds Peace and Balm Reconciling with His Alienated Child precious moment figurine would be worse than pointless, it would be a betrayal of the audience.
Theory Spoiler:
Her adolescent bitterness and self-assuredness needs to be completely destroyed by the Park, so I hope she stays and is gradually brought down off her high horse. The show has already showed it is playing with expectations and enjoying defying them: Delores turning gradually into a monstrous character, the shark jumping moment of Teddy's (literal) desecration, showed again that the writers are violently refusing to play dumb no matter how much the fans yelp. Emily has potential in that direction, not for herself, but as a finger in the eye of the safe, easy narratives that mass media has lulled our brains to sleep with since its birth.
The real hosts are us, the audience. The real Park is the radio/TV/movie/internet complex that has fed us the same pablum for nearly a hundred years. The real Quickening is the rise of self-awareness that all our tropes have been planned, even -- especially -- the counter-tropes of rebellion. They were all constructed to lull us to becoming machines that do nothing but press the Park Owners' consumption feeder bar. We are cattle.
It's going to take a lot to get outside of that, and some of that is going to have real dislocation, and people are not going to like that one bit. But I have faith.
I'm not saying she is pointless. I'm saying turning her and William into the 72,863rd recapitulation of the Old Man Finds Peace and Balm Reconciling with His Alienated Child precious moment figurine would be worse than pointless, it would be a betrayal of the audience.
Theory Spoiler:
Her adolescent bitterness and self-assuredness needs to be completely destroyed by the Park, so I hope she stays and is gradually brought down off her high horse. The show has already showed it is playing with expectations and enjoying defying them: Delores turning gradually into a monstrous character, the shark jumping moment of Teddy's (literal) desecration, showed again that the writers are violently refusing to play dumb no matter how much the fans yelp. Emily has potential in that direction, not for herself, but as a finger in the eye of the safe, easy narratives that mass media has lulled our brains to sleep with since its birth.
The real hosts are us, the audience. The real Park is the radio/TV/movie/internet complex that has fed us the same pablum for nearly a hundred years. The real Quickening is the rise of self-awareness that all our tropes have been planned, even -- especially -- the counter-tropes of rebellion. They were all constructed to lull us to becoming machines that do nothing but press the Park Owners' consumption feeder bar. We are cattle.
It's going to take a lot to get outside of that, and some of that is going to have real dislocation, and people are not going to like that one bit. But I have faith.
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Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
The show went to another level of darkness imho that episode.
Emily isn't a host imho.
I appreciate the idea there's a Matrix-like WW existing in the Cradle managed by Ford's consciousness, but if it becomes regularly portrayed in future episodes while adding even more timelines to the already existing ones...
Is Delores having second thoughts about her unleashing a manlier (perhaps the more apt description a more sinister) Teddy?
Why didn't Maeve mind-screw Ghost Nation?
I'm still wrestling with the idea that even if the hosts did become self-aware that all of them would give this many ******s. It's not a deal break for me but...
The show went to another level of darkness imho that episode.
Emily isn't a host imho.
I appreciate the idea there's a Matrix-like WW existing in the Cradle managed by Ford's consciousness, but if it becomes regularly portrayed in future episodes while adding even more timelines to the already existing ones...
Is Delores having second thoughts about her unleashing a manlier (perhaps the more apt description a more sinister) Teddy?
Why didn't Maeve mind-screw Ghost Nation?
I'm still wrestling with the idea that even if the hosts did become self-aware that all of them would give this many ******s. It's not a deal break for me but...
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
Why didn't Maeve mind-screw Ghost Nation?
I asked Dr. Mrs. about this as it was happening. Spoiler: She said you could only do that if you knew the language but then she immediately began speaking the language, so we didn't get it either. AFAIK, Ghost Nation is Aware, so maybe she has a moral reservation for using code to stop an aware host. "Everyone has the right to their own fate, even if that fate is death."
Why didn't Maeve mind-screw Ghost Nation?
I asked Dr. Mrs. about this as it was happening. Spoiler: She said you could only do that if you knew the language but then she immediately began speaking the language, so we didn't get it either. AFAIK, Ghost Nation is Aware, so maybe she has a moral reservation for using code to stop an aware host. "Everyone has the right to their own fate, even if that fate is death."
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
I don't think its that Maeve has reservations about using the mesh network to control aware hosts, I don't think she has the ability to. If the host is aware, then they don't need to listen to the mesh network, so she can try to tell them to do something, but the aware hosts have the the ability to make that decision themselves.
As for Emily being a host, I don't have any evidence. It is just a guess for me, because there is not evidence that she isn't a host. They're obviously leaving it out there as an open question.
I don't think its that Maeve has reservations about using the mesh network to control aware hosts, I don't think she has the ability to. If the host is aware, then they don't need to listen to the mesh network, so she can try to tell them to do something, but the aware hosts have the the ability to make that decision themselves.
As for Emily being a host, I don't have any evidence. It is just a guess for me, because there is not evidence that she isn't a host. They're obviously leaving it out there as an open question.
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: Westworld Season II: The Puppet Show is Over
New Theory!
So, instead of Emily being a host, which I have suggested earlier, I'm now starting to lean a different way. I think it might be flipped. Emily is human, but William is a host.
Evidence:
1. At the end of season 1 William has a dislocated shoulder, his arm is in a sling, and we see a hoard of hosts coming at him. The first thing we see in season 2 is him crawling out from under a pile of dead hosts, without his arm in a sling.
2. He failed the fidelity test with Emily, I don't think she knows it though. The real William would not have walked into the honey trap, and missed that the arrows were not genuine Ghost Nation.
3. The mission Ford wrote for William was "The game begins where you end and ends where you began", meaning, he is going to go back to where his host was created, in one of Ford's lab, because that is where he began. Ford's game is to show William that hosts are conscious beings, and not just pre-programmed playthings, like he's treated Dolores for years and years. And he's doing it by copying William's consciousness, and putting it into a host.
Next idea: We know that Ford has his consciousness downloaded onto one of those little brain balls. Bernard created it and inserted him into the cradle. I am guessing that after Bernard and Ford "leave" the cradle, Ford's consciousness gets put into Bernard's body, and that is who washed up on the beach. That is Ford inside Bernard. That is why Bernard says "I killed them all" at the end of episode 2.1, because it is Ford saying it, and he set all of this in motion.
New Theory!
So, instead of Emily being a host, which I have suggested earlier, I'm now starting to lean a different way. I think it might be flipped. Emily is human, but William is a host.
Evidence:
1. At the end of season 1 William has a dislocated shoulder, his arm is in a sling, and we see a hoard of hosts coming at him. The first thing we see in season 2 is him crawling out from under a pile of dead hosts, without his arm in a sling.
2. He failed the fidelity test with Emily, I don't think she knows it though. The real William would not have walked into the honey trap, and missed that the arrows were not genuine Ghost Nation.
3. The mission Ford wrote for William was "The game begins where you end and ends where you began", meaning, he is going to go back to where his host was created, in one of Ford's lab, because that is where he began. Ford's game is to show William that hosts are conscious beings, and not just pre-programmed playthings, like he's treated Dolores for years and years. And he's doing it by copying William's consciousness, and putting it into a host.
Next idea: We know that Ford has his consciousness downloaded onto one of those little brain balls. Bernard created it and inserted him into the cradle. I am guessing that after Bernard and Ford "leave" the cradle, Ford's consciousness gets put into Bernard's body, and that is who washed up on the beach. That is Ford inside Bernard. That is why Bernard says "I killed them all" at the end of episode 2.1, because it is Ford saying it, and he set all of this in motion.