UW-Stout offseason thread

[one_to7]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

From the school's point of view, they're going to want to find out a few key points.

Did the other players present antagonize the situation or try to defuse it?

Did any of them call for help, cooperate with police, or come forward on their own?

Were they there to just hang out? Or was the goal all along to pick a fight?

Having half the team present at something like this could be the worst possible thing for the hockey aspect of things. The chancellor has said he wants to conduct a full investigation of the team, and the key point here is whether he is going to let them play their season out during it, or if he's going to suspend play until it's over.

I'd also be shocked if the three arrested players aren't expelled before the case goes to trial; I've seen it happen with non athletes and like I said is be shocked if rhe school doesn't remove them. Colleges do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, nor do they need to wait for a criminal case to finish.

I really do hope that Stout does not suspend the season or cut the team. There are players that were not involved and they don't directly deserve to punished. On the other hand, potentially half the team was involved to some degree, and I'm not sure what kind of teamyou can put on the ice if half your team is suspended.

M4W: considering we don't know everything, who's to say Britton didn't push him out of the way first? Or bump into each other? Or who knows what? Someone says something and they deserve to get several people chasing them trying to kick their ***? Give me an effing break.

 

[NUProf]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

It may be relevant, may not be relevant, but don't forget what happened at UVM after the hazing scandal or what happened at Duke after the incident that happened a couple of years ago. In each case there was community outrage and pressure on the school to shut the program down for the balance of the season. Justified or not, the ultimate administrative response was to punish the program.

I don't know whether I think that is bad idea or a good idea, but I think it could be a likely consequence.

It's a horrible outcome, and to me some things still don't add up (why ride a bicycle to a bar at night? Why react with such outrage to someone asking about your shirt?) The whole thing is sad and senseless

 

[d3follower]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

I'd also be shocked if the three arrested players aren't expelled before the case goes to trial; I've seen it happen with non athletes and like I said is be shocked if rhe school doesn't remove them. Colleges do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, nor do they need to wait for a criminal case to finish. . . .

The two arrested players have already been suspended by the school and were given special permission by the court to re-locate to the Minneapolis area until the trial for their own safety . . .

 

[d3follower]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

. . .

It's a horrible outcome, and to me some things still don't add up (why ride a bicycle to a bar at night? . .

To avoid a possible DUI charge??? That's kind of the only plausible explanation I could come up with . .

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

...It's a horrible outcome, and to me some things still don't add up (why ride a bicycle to a bar at night? Why react with such outrage to someone asking about your shirt?) The whole thing is sad and senseless

There is a lot that doesn't "add up", felony battery and felony murder usually requires intent, intent usually requires sufficient state of mind to plan ones actions. Intoxication is not an excuse, but the conditions leading up to the intoxication play a factor in determining how much weight the intoxication plays. If he was intoxicated, did he intend to get intoxicated? Wisconsin's "Over-Serving the Intoxicated" law adds credit to a belief that one should be able to visit a bar without being over-served, clearly more information than I have is required to know, but a potential defense or mitigation to a lesser charge is here. What was the intent and expectations of their actions, misjudging the speed of the bicycle or misjudging the rider’s reaction and/or ability to react are also factors – this does not pass any culpability to the victim, but it does question intent. The fact that he went forward over the handle bars is to be expected, given the laws of motion. The DA went with Felony Murder, versus Reckless Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter, so I am left wondering how much information there is, the courts will decide.

The Chancellor must decide how Stout’s students can best be served, he must like Simon’s parents make a decision that allows as much benefit to the uninvolved parties as possible. A knee jerk reaction would be wrong, an extreme action may be justified, but for Stout’s students, this is their time in college, there are no do-over’s, no second-chance at youth, whatever is decided, it must be rational and in the best interest of the uninvolved.

 

[d3follower]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

There is a lot that doesn't "add up", felony battery and felony murder usually requires intent, intent usually requires sufficient state of mind to plan ones actions. . . .

The battery looks to have been very intentional - the bouncer even knew that it was probably going to happen, which was why he was looking for the victim to tell him to stay in the bar (but sadly was too late). The batterer pursued the victim to knock him off his bike - that will get you to intent under the law. As I understand it, the blow was from the rear. This was no in-the-heat-of-a-fistfight situation. Felony murder is any murder committed while committing a felony . .

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

If he was intoxicated, did he intend to get intoxicated?

Thank you for that.

 

[XYZ]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

It's a horrible outcome, and to me some things still don't add up (why ride a bicycle to a bar at night? ....

As d3follower said...to avoid a possible DUI. Plus it's a college town, very common to see people ride bikes pretty much anywhere any time of day.

There is a lot that doesn't "add up", felony battery and felony murder usually requires intent

If you read any of the articles you've linked to you'd be aware that "felony murder" is a technical charge implying a murder occurred as the result of the attempt to commit another felony - in this case the battery. The very nature of the charge is absent intent, which the DA has spoken to in multiple articles.

 

[XYZ]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

If he was intoxicated, did he intend to get intoxicated?

No, he was strapped to the table and forcefed booze through a hose by a band of gypsies. Just give it a rest sometimes.

 

[XYZ]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

As a final comment with a triple post:

All this speculation is asinine. None of us know what happened, so speculating as to what the consequences might be based on speculation as to what actually happened is pretty **** arrogant of anyone doing it. That also goes for attempting to fill in the details of what happened. Try to do that and you're either arrogant or downright ignorant.

Now, speculating what might happen as a result of known facts base on precedent of occurrences at other institutions and such is fair and completely different from the above.

This thing is bad enough as it is, so why not stop it with the aimless guesswork, eh?

 

[one_to7]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Norm

do you even bother to read? It's been stated several times in this thread as well as in almos all articles on the subject that 'felony murder' is without intent, and is when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony. How have you missed this?

But sure, keep pontificating about how the DA didn't go for the lesser manslaughter charge when Wisconsin doesn't even have a crime called manslaughter on the books. You really dont add to the discussion when you don't even bother to check what you're talking about.

 

[gojackets]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

To avoid a possible DUI charge??? That's kind of the only plausible explanation I could come up with . .

or like many college students he doesn't have a car


As far as the intoxication...the intoxication will actually make it worse.

I know at one point in WI, legally anytime a person who had sex with a drunk person was committing rape, because a person who is intoxicated was considered to not have the right frame of mind to make that decision. I'm hoping that has changed. "It only happened because I was drunk" is never a good defense and most likely a judge would punish an intoxicated person more for not controlling themselves and getting to that point.

 

[gojackets]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

All this speculation is asinine. None of us know what happened, so speculating as to what the consequences might be based on speculation as to what actually happened is pretty **** arrogant of anyone doing it. That also goes for attempting to fill in the details of what happened. Try to do that and you're either arrogant or downright ignorant.

Isn't that all anyone ever does on this board? Speculation?

 

[AVFC]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

As d3follower said...to avoid a possible DUI. Plus it's a college town, very common to see people ride bikes pretty much anywhere any time of day.




If you read any of the articles you've linked to you'd be aware that "felony murder" is a technical charge implying a murder occurred as the result of the attempt to commit another felony - in this case the battery. The very nature of the charge is absent intent, which the DA has spoken to in multiple articles.

Felony murder usually requires that you prove intent to commit the underlying felony (in this case assault). Traditionally the charge was limited to death during the commission of an inherently dangerous crime (arson, rape, burglary etc.). I have no idea what the current law is in WI.

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

No, he was strapped to the table and forcefed booze through a hose by a band of gypsies. Just give it a rest sometimes.

I'm sorry, what I meant is "was his intentions to get intoxicated so as to remove/reduce his inhibitions to commit violence".

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Norm

do you even bother to read? It's been stated several times in this thread as well as in almos all articles on the subject that 'felony murder' is without intent, and is when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony. How have you missed this?

But sure, keep pontificating about how the DA didn't go for the lesser manslaughter charge when Wisconsin doesn't even have a crime called manslaughter on the books. You really dont add to the discussion when you don't even bother to check what you're talking about.

While it is true, that 'felony murder' can be when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony, but battery in and of itself need not be felony, it can be a misdemeanor, intent is usually key to being elevated to a felony.

 

[one_to7]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

While it is true, that 'felony murder' can be when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony, but battery in and of itself need not be felony, it can be a misdemeanor, intent is usually key to being elevated to a felony.

Battery is unwanted contact that results in pain or injury. The pain and injury has to be either intentional or that a reasonable person would have expected the act to cause pain or injury.

I'd honestly be interested to see a defense where you argue that shoving someone on a bike (following an argument and confrontation) was not intended to cause *any* pain or injury of any sort. Being intoxicated is not a defense, by the way. Not unless you can make the argument that you were so intoxicated you could not tell right from wrong.... which then poses the problem of why he fled the scene before police arrived if he didn't think he did anything wrong.

 

[norm1909]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Norm

do you even bother to read? It's been stated several times in this thread as well as in almos all articles on the subject that 'felony murder' is without intent, and is when someone causes a death during the commission of a felony. How have you missed this?

But sure, keep pontificating about how the DA didn't go for the lesser manslaughter charge when Wisconsin doesn't even have a crime called manslaughter on the books. You really dont add to the discussion when you don't even bother to check what you're talking about.

In Wisconsin, Reckless Homicide is used synonymously as manslaughter.

 

[goalcoach70]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

OK - as a lawyer (not criminal, but still had to learn it to pass the bar) the legal analysis on this forum is not very good. I would not even attempt to comment on the situation without a lot more facts (And just because the DA made an initial charge, does not mean that will be the charge that goes to trial).

 

[Real Old #35]

Re: UW-Stout offseason thread

Based on the description of the injuries incurred and the alleged cause of those injuries, it leads me to think that there is more to the story. How fast could that bike have been going if two guys were able to chase it down? And if they were able to chase it down at a low rate of speed how does one explain the severity of those injuries? I believe there is more to the story. Based on what I have been reading, there were not witnesses to the alleged event and the story of what happened has be supplied by the accused parties. That doesn't change the result, but it could explain what really happened and change the opinions of those following the future of the program.

These young men will receive justice although, as mentioned in many posts, nothing will reverse the result of these alleged actions. Very, very sad on so many levels.

As far as UW-Stout losing the season, as sick as it makes me feel when I think about the people touched by that program, I believe there is high probability it could happen. I don't mean to sound sympathetic to the team out of respect for the victim and his family, but consider some of the issues the team will have to endure just to make it through the year. I don't believe this was a "mob mentality" situation as some have suggested. These players, coaches, parents, fans and even the rink have a vested interest in the season and it would be a tremendous loss for them and their dreams and expectations. Does that compare to the loss the Simon family is feeling? Of course not! But nonetheless, more innocent victims are effected in this senseless event.

Another thought that strikes me, is what kind of conversations are taking place in sports locker rooms as a result of this? If anything good can come of this, maybe it is an awareness and a heightened sense of responsibility that these student athletes have as citizens.

The University will do what they feel is right when all the information is collected. I am hopeful that the innocent (I know, I know, not all are innocent. Many posters have anyone there culpable. I don't believe that is the case) will not be punished for the act of the accused. If a season death penalty is handed down, however, it is understandable.

What a an incredibly sad and complicated situation.