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Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Right now, however, the campus (SUNY Canton, that is) is closed and students who are not currently involved in athletics have been sent home following a fire on Friday in one of their laboratories.
 
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Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

PSUChamps2001 said:
Please Lord tell me you understand that DI still has autobirths and size of a conference DOES matter!?!?!?

You are trying to compare putting teams in a Division that allows 30+ games (giving a lot more NC games between top teams to be scheduled, solitifying a true ranking). A playoff system that allows 10 (not 3) At-Large bids. If DIII had 10 at large bids 2 if not 3 ECAC West teams would be in (maybe even 4).

Utica is off the radar because...
- there are only 3 at large bids
- their numbers don't beat out other teams ahead of them
- 4-7-2 vs probably ranked teams 7-4-2 and we are talking about Utica
- Elmira is 6-4-1 (hense they are above Utica) and probably looking at the last pool c spot is everyone wins thats suppose to.

You really have to be above .500 vs ranked opponents to be in the real running. Do they have an outside shot? If the stars align right and the right people win and the right people lose sure. I know you're trying to hold on to that last glimmer of hope, which I would hope the team is as well.
Click to expand...



No, size-of-conference doesn't matter at all in D-1.... Every conference gets an AQ, but outside of those few gifts to the (2 or 3) weak sister conferences, only the PWR determines who gets in. Being a member of a conference can sometimes gain a team an (unmerited) shot at The Show, granted, but the size of the conference in question has no bearing on the process at all. Generally, there are only a couple of teams low in the PW who get bids via an AQ, but everyone else is eligible to compete for the remaining berths, as long as that team earns it on the ice. (My original point.)

To repeat:The PW is an objective measure that doesn't recognize any artificial boundaries such as conference size/affiliations.(Anything else I can help you with?)

And, if there are truly only three at-large bids available (I haven't bothered to look at how D-3 decided to tweak their selection-farce this year,) it's going to be another head-scratcher when the bids are given away.

If the above is the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see the W shut-out completely... And that is patently ridiculous, from anyone's perspective, even yours.
 
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Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Ozz said:
If the ECAC-West were to add two 'hapless' programs, then yes it would make them 'worthy' of an AQ. Seven teams are needed for a conference to receive an auto-bid, regardless of how successful these seven teams are. 'Worthiness' is not defined by the quality of teams, but the quantity of teams in a given conference.

Please....



...and thank you! :-D
Click to expand...

"Please", what?

You just made a completely salient argument against the way the D-3 field is chosen.
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Fishman'81 said:
No, size-of-conference doesn't matter at all in D-1.... Every conference gets an AQ, but outside of those few gifts to the (2 or 3) weak sister conferences, only the PWR determines who gets in. Being a member of a conference can sometimes gain a team an (unmerited) shot at The Show, granted, but the size of the conference in question has no bearing on the process at all. Generally, there are only a couple of teams low in the PW who get bids via an AQ, but everyone else is eligible to compete for the remaining berths, as long as that team earns it on the ice. (My original point.)

To repeat:The PW is an objective measure that doesn't recognize any artificial boundaries such as conference size/affiliations.(Anything else I can help you with?)

And, if there are truly only three at-large bids available (I haven't bothered to look at how D-3 decided to tweak their selection-farce this year,) it's going to be another head-scratcher when the bids are given away.

If the above is the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see the W shut-out completely... And that is patently ridiculous, from anyone's perspective, even yours.
Click to expand...

Division I has a minimum conference size of 6. The CHA got a reprieve of two years before the went out of business. The issue here is the ratio auto bids to at large bids (what we call Pool B and Pool C). All those rules are determined by the overall DIII rules of operations for championships. The hockey community has to operate within the rules established by the NCAA for all team sports. Would it be better to have the kind of ratio of auto bids to at large bids that DI has - of course, but it's not going to happen unless the NCAA chooses to do so for all sports - they fund the DIII championships for all sports. Get the NCAA to be willing to spend more money on volleyball, field hockey, gymnastics, rowing, track and field, tennis, etc. etc. and the number of pool B and pool C bids in all sports can be increased.
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I know I am so confused what his issue is here. Obvisouly he doesn't really understand how things work. The fact that even in DI if a conference drops below the minimal required limit (with obviously the CHA exception that will expire) they lose their AQ bid. If something was to happen to the WCHA or ECAC where they were left with only 4 teams, they to would lose their AQ and rely on the At Large process.

The ECAC West was given a defacto AQ bid for years with the Pool B bid. Had the MCHA actually put up a real fight over the years pre Adrian (okay even with Adrian) the West could have never recieved the bid back then as well.

There are 11 spots, 8 go to Conference Champs (weak or not) leaving you with three spots to fill...right now Utica does NOT make it in using the at large system, period. Like I said earlier, if they were actually above .500 against projected ranked teams, they would be in the discussion. How hard is this to understand?

How is adding two teams to get an autobid anything bad? Every league (DI or DIII) has to have "x" amount of teams in a conference to get an at large bid. lts not hard to understand. If I were the ECAC West I don't care if its Scranton applying. If it guarantee's at least one team, no matter how good or bad they are, an auto ticket into the NCAA process who cares. Do you want the NCAA to guarantee the West a spot with just 5 teams and go against its rules for the other few dozen sports just because they are the West? Right...I'm sure that will go over well. What happens if the West has a down year (which HAS happened) and is NOT a very good Conference? So we should still allow a Conference below minimal teams to still have that AQ, or should we do it on a year by year basis and just change the rules as you see fit? Heck Plattsburgh might as well go out and get the 4 worse teams in DIII and call it a conference then.

Yes it sucks, those are the rules. I'd love to see the ECAC NE and the MASCAC lose their auto bid as well to give us 2 more Pool C bids, but within the DIII rules (and really NCAA rules) they deserve a bid. So you take them away, and then give one to the ECAC West...what happens the year a MASCAC league and or ECAC NE becomes a better conference or has a more deserving team then? I wonder if all you ECAC West people who are crying over the system would cry for them too...probably not.

Is Utica one of the best teams in DIII, absolutley....are they the best remaining team to get an At-Large bid? Probably not. The numbers don't support it.
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Fishman'81 said:
No, size-of-conference doesn't matter at all in D-1.... Every conference gets an AQ, but outside of those few gifts to the (2 or 3) weak sister conferences, only the PWR determines who gets in. Being a member of a conference can sometimes gain a team an (unmerited) shot at The Show, granted, but the size of the conference in question has no bearing on the process at all. Generally, there are only a couple of teams low in the PW who get bids via an AQ, but everyone else is eligible to compete for the remaining berths, as long as that team earns it on the ice. (My original point.)

To repeat:The PW is an objective measure that doesn't recognize any artificial boundaries such as conference size/affiliations.(Anything else I can help you with?)

And, if there are truly only three at-large bids available (I haven't bothered to look at how D-3 decided to tweak their selection-farce this year,) it's going to be another head-scratcher when the bids are given away.

If the above is the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see the W shut-out completely... And that is patently ridiculous, from anyone's perspective, even yours.
Click to expand...

As has been pointed out elsewhere, there's some delusion to how you see the D1 process working.

A. Conference size DOES matter -- 6 is the magic number for an autobid in D1.

B. The Pairwise Rankings DO NOT select the NCAA tournament field. It is a statistical model designed to mimic the process that the NCAA uses. It has been wrong a couple times since they started using it a dozen or so years ago. The D1 selection committee uses specific, objective criteria, but exactly how they weight the SOS components of the RPI is kept a secret, and thus the possibility for inaccuracy in the fan/media driven PWR.

C. D3 now: D3 also uses specific, objective criteria. Just like D1, these criteria are known entities before selections are made. What isn't known, also like D1, is how those criteria are weighted. There are several large differences between D1 and D3 that make the selection process much less predictable: there are only 11 bids for 70± teams [15%] (D1 has 16 bids for 59 teams [27%]); the D3 committee(s) have much more flexibility in their weighting...they are given the ability to weight ANY of the criteria how they see fit, and can change that weighting at will (D1 can only change how the RPI is constructed).

Anything else?

r
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

OK, I know this it "Their" Thread, meaning Utica's Thread but for crying out loud, this "bid" thing has been beat to death. Utica just isn't going to get a bid, heck, I'll be surprised if any ECAC-W team gets one.
Utica is a "good" team, but not the "great" team we were all lead to believe from day one of the season.
If I checked the standings correctly, even if M'Ville gets swept by Hobart, and Utica beats Elmira, that still gives Utica a tie for second place with M'ville and head to head, M'ville beats Utica. Third place is the best they can do the way I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm not complaining about the lack of an auto bid, it is what it is and we'll take any bid we can "Earn"
 
cetihcra said:
As has been pointed out elsewhere, there's some delusion to how you see the D1 process working.

A. Conference size DOES matter -- 6 is the magic number for an autobid in D1.

B. The Pairwise Rankings DO NOT select the NCAA tournament field. It is a statistical model designed to mimic the process that the NCAA uses. It has been wrong a couple times since they started using it a dozen or so years ago. The D1 selection committee uses specific, objective criteria, but exactly how they weight the SOS components of the RPI is kept a secret, and thus the possibility for inaccuracy in the fan/media driven PWR.

C. D3 now: D3 also uses specific, objective criteria. Just like D1, these criteria are known entities before selections are made. What isn't known, also like D1, is how those criteria are weighted. There are several large differences between D1 and D3 that make the selection process much less predictable: there are only 11 bids for 70± teams [15%] (D1 has 16 bids for 59 teams [27%]); the D3 committee(s) have much more flexibility in their weighting...they are given the ability to weight ANY of the criteria how they see fit, and can change that weighting at will (D1 can only change how the RPI is constructed).

Anything else?


r
Click to expand...

Game...
Set....
Match....
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

jconnor said:
OK, I know this it "Their" Thread, meaning Utica's Thread but for crying out loud, this "bid" thing has been beat to death. Utica just isn't going to get a bid, heck, I'll be surprised if any ECAC-W team gets one.
Utica is a "good" team, but not the "great" team we were all lead to believe from day one of the season.
If I checked the standings correctly, even if M'Ville gets swept by Hobart, and Utica beats Elmira, that still gives Utica a tie for second place with M'ville and head to head, M'ville beats Utica. Third place is the best they can do the way I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm not complaining about the lack of an auto bid, it is what it is and we'll take any bid we can "Earn"
Click to expand...

Just to point out regular season has nothing to do with any of the auto bids the post season tourney winner gets them in every league so theoretically the last playoff team in from every auto bid conference could screw all these predictions up

I think UC is on shaky ground but to be surprised if a West team makes the tourney is a little crazy I would be surprised if the west gets two teams in this year but they will get at least one in at this rate probably whomever wins there conference tourney out of Utica, Nuemann, M'ville or Elmira
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

UCAlum32 said:
Just to point out regular season has nothing to do with any of the auto bids the post season tourney winner gets them in every league so theoretically the last playoff team in from every auto bid conference could screw all these predictions up

I think UC is on shaky ground but to be surprised if a West team makes the tourney is a little crazy I would be surprised if the west gets two teams in this year but they will get at least one in at this rate probably whomever wins there conference tourney out of Utica, Nuemann, M'ville or Elmira
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm not the expert but if Utica does wing the Conf. Championship, I still don't see them getting in, Remember a couple of years ago? M'Ville won but didn't get the invite?
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

You're right it could definitely work out that way I just don't see a lot of separation from one to four in the West what little in conference advantage Elmira has is pulled down by some out of conference stumbles after that 2,3,4 is only separated by one win (2pts) between each position so logic say to give to the hot team the tourney winner but god knows there is no logic in ncaa selection (plus the winner will have two extra wins over high SOS teams)
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

UCAlum32 said:
You're right it could definitely work out that way I just don't see a lot of separation from one to four in the West what little in conference advantage Elmira has is pulled down by some out of conference stumbles after that 2,3,4 is only separated by one win (2pts) between each position so logic say to give to the hot team the tourney winner but god knows there is no logic in ncaa selection (plus the winner will have two extra wins over high SOS teams)
Click to expand...

I agree somewhat, but until we can get 7 teams for the AQ, we just need to sit back and take what happens, not really worth all this unnecessary posting which does nothing but create bad feeling between posters. It is what it is and you're right, Logic has no say in it.
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

cetihcra said:
As has been pointed out elsewhere, there's some delusion to how you see the D1 process working.

A. Conference size DOES matter -- 6 is the magic number for an autobid in D1.

B. The Pairwise Rankings DO NOT select the NCAA tournament field. It is a statistical model designed to mimic the process that the NCAA uses. It has been wrong a couple times since they started using it a dozen or so years ago. The D1 selection committee uses specific, objective criteria, but exactly how they weight the SOS components of the RPI is kept a secret, and thus the possibility for inaccuracy in the fan/media driven PWR.

C. D3 now: D3 also uses specific, objective criteria. Just like D1, these criteria are known entities before selections are made. What isn't known, also like D1, is how those criteria are weighted. There are several large differences between D1 and D3 that make the selection process much less predictable: there are only 11 bids for 70� teams [15%] (D1 has 16 bids for 59 teams [27%]); the D3 committee(s) have much more flexibility in their weighting...they are given the ability to weight ANY of the criteria how they see fit, and can change that weighting at will (D1 can only change how the RPI is constructed).

Anything else?

r
Click to expand...

A. Conference size doesn't matter in D-1, because all existing conferences are easily within the 6-team minimum, rendering that question moot. (Sorry, should have been more specific on that one, even as self-evident as it is in the first place.)

B. RPI is actually public domain, and while the committee reserves the right to fudge it as they will, that never seems to happen anymore, if in fact it ever has.

Anyone can figure out the D-1 field just by looking at the numbers. It's absolutely the most transparent process in any of the bigger NCAA sports right now... The BCS sans polls.

And you can take the PWR to the bank every year, as of late. (And, BTW, there is nothing in the PWR that is influenced whatsoever by the fans or the media. The polls are not factored-in, nor are any opinions involved at all, aside from the siting considerations once the field sets itself.)

C. The AQ's are arbitrary. Guess you could call them "specific" if you prefer... But there is nothing objective in the D-3 process. (As you say, there's a lot of *flexibility* afforded the committee, which translates into a mysterious process with no public accountability. Kinda like political redistricting.)
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Well, what they actually are is "set in stone"... There's a distinction to be made there.

Yet I have to agree with you guys that the W can only hope to get one team in, at best... If there are no upset AQ's in the field, then I'm guessing the W's conference champion gets a bid, as long as it's not Hobart (which could easily happen.)

As has been stated previously on this thread, the W getting even one berth is pretty-much a long shot... Something is hopelessly flawed in this process, obviously.
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Fishman'81 said:
Well, what they actually are is "set in stone"... There's a distinction to be made there.

Yet I have to agree with you guys that the W can only hope to get one team in, at best... If there are no upset AQ's in the field, then I'm guessing the W's conference champion gets a bid, as long as it's not Hobart (which could easily happen.)

As has been stated previously on this thread, the W getting even one berth is pretty-much a long shot... Something is hopelessly flawed in this process, obviously.
Click to expand...

There has to be some Adrian fans (left) (heck, MCHA fans for that matter) out there who can help fish out :o
 
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Fishman'81 said:
As has been stated previously on this thread, the W getting even one berth is pretty-much a long shot... Something is hopelessly flawed in this process, obviously.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's true at all. Not to pile on, but i think it's been stated that the chance of UTICA getting a berth is a long shot. In fact, if you look at the last 3 bracketology posts on "the other site", they still have BOTH Elmira and M'ville getting Pool Cs. That, of course, barring any conference tourney upsets.

But if everyone who is supposed to win their AQ does...I wouldn't be shocked to see Elmira and M'ville get in. WILL everyone who is supposed to win their AQ win their AQ? Probably not.

Does Utica still have a chance? Maybe, but they need some serious help. The NCAA did Elmira a favor by ranking Fredonia, which gave them a bump in SOS and RNK.
 
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