PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Congrats?
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Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
- Thread starter jcase
- Start date
Congrats?
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
What are you talking about? EC's SOS proves otherwise.
What are you talking about? EC's SOS proves otherwise.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
Matter of fact, when last I checked, no conference as a whole even approached the W's SOS numbers.
(As a service to the troll, I'll explain: that's because there are no weak programs in this league... Get it?)
It would be nice if you went back to whatever thread is your home for chest-thumping... You bring nothing of interest to this one.
Matter of fact, when last I checked, no conference as a whole even approached the W's SOS numbers.
(As a service to the troll, I'll explain: that's because there are no weak programs in this league... Get it?)
It would be nice if you went back to whatever thread is your home for chest-thumping... You bring nothing of interest to this one.
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PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
And when your league plays the majority of its NC schedule against bottom half teams around the country sprinkled with a few good teams and you win you're going to have a good SOS. No one is saying there is a "weak" team. Hobart would be a SUNYAC playoff team probably for sure as most all would. However you want to make it seem like the league is made up of nothing but Plattsburgh/Oswego type teams just because they have this amazing SOS against bottom teir teams. Thus when Team A plays a weak NC schedule and win and they play Team B who also played a weak NC schedule (and won the majority) they play each other 3 times and their SOS looks amazing. Everyone has these big eyes because the W has this amazing SOS, but come playoff time its normally a one and done. Again, I'm not saying the ECAC W's are a bunch of Brockports/Morrisvilles (even if Brockport did beat the #1 West team) and if anyone thinks that they are crazy. Now if it were reversed at over 65% of their wins came against the top 3 SUNYAC teams, I might buy it more. What was the record? 4 of their 43 wins have come against teams above a .560 winning %....
And when your league plays the majority of its NC schedule against bottom half teams around the country sprinkled with a few good teams and you win you're going to have a good SOS. No one is saying there is a "weak" team. Hobart would be a SUNYAC playoff team probably for sure as most all would. However you want to make it seem like the league is made up of nothing but Plattsburgh/Oswego type teams just because they have this amazing SOS against bottom teir teams. Thus when Team A plays a weak NC schedule and win and they play Team B who also played a weak NC schedule (and won the majority) they play each other 3 times and their SOS looks amazing. Everyone has these big eyes because the W has this amazing SOS, but come playoff time its normally a one and done. Again, I'm not saying the ECAC W's are a bunch of Brockports/Morrisvilles (even if Brockport did beat the #1 West team) and if anyone thinks that they are crazy. Now if it were reversed at over 65% of their wins came against the top 3 SUNYAC teams, I might buy it more. What was the record? 4 of their 43 wins have come against teams above a .560 winning %....
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
Huh..?
SOS is about playing teams with good W/L with wins vs. others with good W/L, obviously. The West has done that, look it up... (May I refer you to the basics of the RPI concept?) There are no SOS points to be had playing the Cortlands of the world, was my point.
Go crow on another tree, please, and I promise I won't troll on your thread.
Huh..?
SOS is about playing teams with good W/L with wins vs. others with good W/L, obviously. The West has done that, look it up... (May I refer you to the basics of the RPI concept?) There are no SOS points to be had playing the Cortlands of the world, was my point.
Go crow on another tree, please, and I promise I won't troll on your thread.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
ECAC West NC Wins
Morrisville x 6
Salve Regina x 2
Cortland x 5
Conn College
Westfield State
St.Michaels
Brockport x 4
Babson x 2
Nichols
Potsdam x 4
Hamline
Trinity
Buff State x 2
Geneseo
Middlebury
Fredonia x 3
Curry x 4
Wesleyan
Oswego x 2
Amherst x 2
* Only teams above .600 (4 wins game woo hoo)
* Only teams above .550 (do we really buy Curry and Wesleyan as decent teams?)
There looked it up and even put it in black and white for ya with a little Red and Blue..key word LITTLE Red and Blue. But they do have 20 of their wins against teams with a .386 or LOWER. Why wouldn't the ECAC West have good W/L's when only 4 teams had a win % above .550?
So you have 4 wins over quality teams over an intire league. So yea they do win a lot of games to up their winning %, but over who? Thus their SOS looks so wonderful. Just about 85% of their NC schedule was against non-ranked teams as a league. Take out Oswego and 92% was against non-ranked teams.
So yes, the ECAC West has a great NC Conference record which helps inflate their SOS. But when you break down their wins, it becomes almost comical to praise them for their outstanding SOS......
Huh..?
SOS is about playing teams with good W/L with wins vs. others with good W/L, obviously. The West has done that, look it up... (May I refer you to the basics of the RPI concept?) There are no SOS points to be had playing the Cortlands of the world, was my point.
Go crow on another tree, please, and I promise I won't troll on your thread.
ECAC West NC Wins
Morrisville x 6
Salve Regina x 2
Cortland x 5
Conn College
Westfield State
St.Michaels
Brockport x 4
Babson x 2
Nichols
Potsdam x 4
Hamline
Trinity
Buff State x 2
Geneseo
Middlebury
Fredonia x 3
Curry x 4
Wesleyan
Oswego x 2
Amherst x 2
* Only teams above .600 (4 wins game woo hoo)
* Only teams above .550 (do we really buy Curry and Wesleyan as decent teams?)
There looked it up and even put it in black and white for ya with a little Red and Blue..key word LITTLE Red and Blue. But they do have 20 of their wins against teams with a .386 or LOWER. Why wouldn't the ECAC West have good W/L's when only 4 teams had a win % above .550?
So you have 4 wins over quality teams over an intire league. So yea they do win a lot of games to up their winning %, but over who? Thus their SOS looks so wonderful. Just about 85% of their NC schedule was against non-ranked teams as a league. Take out Oswego and 92% was against non-ranked teams.
So yes, the ECAC West has a great NC Conference record which helps inflate their SOS. But when you break down their wins, it becomes almost comical to praise them for their outstanding SOS......
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
No because they get an inflated winning % by beating a bunch of low-tier NCAA teams then get to play each other 3 times making it look like they are playing these great teams 9-12 times a year. Heck even the SUNYAC has more than twice as many NC ranked wins then the Super Power ECAC West. A power conference with these amazing stats probably shouldn't be below .500 against ranked team??
No because they get an inflated winning % by beating a bunch of low-tier NCAA teams then get to play each other 3 times making it look like they are playing these great teams 9-12 times a year. Heck even the SUNYAC has more than twice as many NC ranked wins then the Super Power ECAC West. A power conference with these amazing stats probably shouldn't be below .500 against ranked team??
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
ECAC-West Losses against SUNYAC teams - other than Oswego and Plattsburgh
Brockport (3-8-2) 4-3 over Elmira
Geneseo (5-7-1) 4-2 over Elmira
Geneseo (5-7-1) 6-2 over Hobart
Fredonia (5-5-3) 3-2 over Nuemann
ECAC-West Losses against SUNYAC teams - other than Oswego and Plattsburgh
Brockport (3-8-2) 4-3 over Elmira
Geneseo (5-7-1) 4-2 over Elmira
Geneseo (5-7-1) 6-2 over Hobart
Fredonia (5-5-3) 3-2 over Nuemann
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
(Thank you for reinforcing my dubious addition skills... I was pretty sure that the W was 21-4 vs. every SUNYAC team aside from mighty OSU, but was too lazy to go back and look again.)
Originally, I was just remarking upon how a certain kid looked like a standout in one conference, and a washout in another...Apparently, somebody missed my point, then inadvertently reinforced it by pointing out how mediocre-to- bad the SUNYAC is, once you get beyond Oswego and Plattsburgh. (He/she must have been up half the night looking up all those scores, poor thing.)
General comment: good teams usually beat bad ones, right..? The SOS removes head-to-head in the calculus, which then shows how the teams in question fared against common opponents. Take away how badly the SUNYAC has fared vs. the W, for instance, and that conference's OOC W/L would look MUCH better... Very simple stuff.
(Thank you for reinforcing my dubious addition skills... I was pretty sure that the W was 21-4 vs. every SUNYAC team aside from mighty OSU, but was too lazy to go back and look again.)
Originally, I was just remarking upon how a certain kid looked like a standout in one conference, and a washout in another...Apparently, somebody missed my point, then inadvertently reinforced it by pointing out how mediocre-to- bad the SUNYAC is, once you get beyond Oswego and Plattsburgh. (He/she must have been up half the night looking up all those scores, poor thing.)
General comment: good teams usually beat bad ones, right..? The SOS removes head-to-head in the calculus, which then shows how the teams in question fared against common opponents. Take away how badly the SUNYAC has fared vs. the W, for instance, and that conference's OOC W/L would look MUCH better... Very simple stuff.
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Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
The "low-tier" teams are primarily SUNYAC teams... Capece?
The "low-tier" teams are primarily SUNYAC teams... Capece?
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norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
I'll acknowledge that the other than Oswego & Plattsburgh, the remainder of this year's conference isn't the strongest, BUT nevertheless they have the four wins and several one point losses. That said, while Curry maintained their 1 point in the USCHO rankings, they are the 3 point leaders in the ECAC Northeast. Claiming "The "low-tier" teams are primarily SUNYAC teams... Capece?" makes you appear frustrated - or you do not Capiche. Curry is a prime example of team that made the effort to schedule for a strong SOS - by playing the ECAC West. But in a case like this, Curry has everything to gain and very little to loose with the converse falling on their opponents, fortunately, unlike the four losses to the "low tier" SUNYAC teams, the ECAC West, "did what it had to do", a couple of times, again with only 1 point wins. It is true - and unfortunate - that the ECAC West due to its small conference size is forced to play non-conference the teams that have "everything to gain and very little to loose" by playing them. I doubt it is lack of desire by the ECAC West teams to play top caliber teams, but rather "it is what it is" for the ECAC West - another frustrating PITA on top of no AQ.
I'll acknowledge that the other than Oswego & Plattsburgh, the remainder of this year's conference isn't the strongest, BUT nevertheless they have the four wins and several one point losses. That said, while Curry maintained their 1 point in the USCHO rankings, they are the 3 point leaders in the ECAC Northeast. Claiming "The "low-tier" teams are primarily SUNYAC teams... Capece?" makes you appear frustrated - or you do not Capiche. Curry is a prime example of team that made the effort to schedule for a strong SOS - by playing the ECAC West. But in a case like this, Curry has everything to gain and very little to loose with the converse falling on their opponents, fortunately, unlike the four losses to the "low tier" SUNYAC teams, the ECAC West, "did what it had to do", a couple of times, again with only 1 point wins. It is true - and unfortunate - that the ECAC West due to its small conference size is forced to play non-conference the teams that have "everything to gain and very little to loose" by playing them. I doubt it is lack of desire by the ECAC West teams to play top caliber teams, but rather "it is what it is" for the ECAC West - another frustrating PITA on top of no AQ.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
A. When have I ever said as a whole the SUNY > ECAC West? Didn't think so. Even if Brockport has beaten your beloved top ranked ECAC West team. This isn't my first rodeo watching DIII hockey.
B. Facts are still facts, SUNY or not, the ECAC West has just 4 wins over teams with a winning % above .560! FOUR against 2 teams. So the FACTS are they have inflated their W/L by beating really .500 and below teams.
C. You were comparing where Cody is today and where he was (at Plattsburgh). If you reread you will see I even said I would agree with you IF Cody came from just about any other SUNYAC team (the whole not use to playing the ECAC West schedule). In his freshman year alone Cody played in more NC away games against Ranked Opponents then Utica has in the past decade. Plattsburgh plays just as hard, if not harder, schedule then anyone in the ECAC West. So saying Cody isn't use to playing a tough schedule night in and night out is ridiculous. Cody was one of the best defensemen at Plattsburgh during those games as well.
Why he is not up to your standards I am not debating. As I said I've talked with several players who have transfered and one just a few weeks ago who was a big star at Plattsburgh and went elsewhere, and when he got there was not the same player. But saying its because Cody's not use to Utica's tough schedule, when 90% of the games they don't even get on a bus for, is ludicrous and shows just how much you don't look into things.
And looking up stats is not that hard when you have excel and you're doing FHL stats every week. You see a lot of games and a lot of the stats that go a long with it.
Yes some Low Tier teams are SUNYAC....nearly 60% of the SUNYAC wins came against the bottom 3 (Morrisville, Brockport, and Cortland) yet only 14% came against top 3 SUNYAC teams. With close proximity it's not a surprise the W does play the majority of their NC games against SUNYAC, but when you have just FOUR wins over teams with a winning % above .560 and you're around .400 against ranked opponents its not overpowering. Again, yes no Conference as a whole comes close, understand and not arguing. ECAC West post Leb Valley, is a very good conference but to get awestruck by such a great SOS when they really don't play anyone but some of the worst SUNYAC, ECAC NE, NESCAC, and MASCAC teams is the point. Are they all Top 20 teams? Absolutely with Hobart pushing it.
All we hear is SOS, SOS, SOS with the west when in reality their SOS is based on beating up a bunch of poor teams, raising each teams W/L record in conference and then playing them each 3 times a year will do that for ya. If the ECAC West had more then 8% of their wins against teams above .560, even 20% it would be a little more respectable and worthy of a great SOS.
Back to your regularly scheduled program....
A. When have I ever said as a whole the SUNY > ECAC West? Didn't think so. Even if Brockport has beaten your beloved top ranked ECAC West team. This isn't my first rodeo watching DIII hockey.
B. Facts are still facts, SUNY or not, the ECAC West has just 4 wins over teams with a winning % above .560! FOUR against 2 teams. So the FACTS are they have inflated their W/L by beating really .500 and below teams.
C. You were comparing where Cody is today and where he was (at Plattsburgh). If you reread you will see I even said I would agree with you IF Cody came from just about any other SUNYAC team (the whole not use to playing the ECAC West schedule). In his freshman year alone Cody played in more NC away games against Ranked Opponents then Utica has in the past decade. Plattsburgh plays just as hard, if not harder, schedule then anyone in the ECAC West. So saying Cody isn't use to playing a tough schedule night in and night out is ridiculous. Cody was one of the best defensemen at Plattsburgh during those games as well.
Why he is not up to your standards I am not debating. As I said I've talked with several players who have transfered and one just a few weeks ago who was a big star at Plattsburgh and went elsewhere, and when he got there was not the same player. But saying its because Cody's not use to Utica's tough schedule, when 90% of the games they don't even get on a bus for, is ludicrous and shows just how much you don't look into things.
And looking up stats is not that hard when you have excel and you're doing FHL stats every week. You see a lot of games and a lot of the stats that go a long with it.
Yes some Low Tier teams are SUNYAC....nearly 60% of the SUNYAC wins came against the bottom 3 (Morrisville, Brockport, and Cortland) yet only 14% came against top 3 SUNYAC teams. With close proximity it's not a surprise the W does play the majority of their NC games against SUNYAC, but when you have just FOUR wins over teams with a winning % above .560 and you're around .400 against ranked opponents its not overpowering. Again, yes no Conference as a whole comes close, understand and not arguing. ECAC West post Leb Valley, is a very good conference but to get awestruck by such a great SOS when they really don't play anyone but some of the worst SUNYAC, ECAC NE, NESCAC, and MASCAC teams is the point. Are they all Top 20 teams? Absolutely with Hobart pushing it.
All we hear is SOS, SOS, SOS with the west when in reality their SOS is based on beating up a bunch of poor teams, raising each teams W/L record in conference and then playing them each 3 times a year will do that for ya. If the ECAC West had more then 8% of their wins against teams above .560, even 20% it would be a little more respectable and worthy of a great SOS.
Back to your regularly scheduled program....
Morrisville only played 5 ECAC-West teams.
If you take that list of teams you made and take only their record against non-ecac-west teams they look better, really you're penalizing ECAC-West teams for other ECAC-West teams beating their common opponents, and since we're comparing the west as a whole that's not entirely fair. Curry goes from 0.571 to 0.719 if you take out their games against the West, Fredonia goes from 0.548 to 0.618, Potsdam goes from 0.429 to 0.529, Brockport goes from 0.386 to 0.441
If you take that list of teams you made and take only their record against non-ecac-west teams they look better, really you're penalizing ECAC-West teams for other ECAC-West teams beating their common opponents, and since we're comparing the west as a whole that's not entirely fair. Curry goes from 0.571 to 0.719 if you take out their games against the West, Fredonia goes from 0.548 to 0.618, Potsdam goes from 0.429 to 0.529, Brockport goes from 0.386 to 0.441
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
I was giving Manhatanville the benefit of the doubt.
Again, I'm not challenging the fact that the ECAC West isn't made up of a bunch of good teams. If Morrisville, Curry, Fredonia, and or Potsdam were to schedule similar teams they would still probably end up losing keeping their record the same. So say Curry schedules games against the bottom 5 NCAA DIII teams and brings that number up into the .720 range...are they a .720 team compared to a team that has scheduled ECAC West teams and other top 15 teams and have a .720?? No. Curry benifits from having played in the ECAC NE. Fredonia...take out their ECAC W NC games and they've played two against powerhouses J&W (not the rootbeer) and Assumption, we all know what happens when you assume. Potsdam is maybe a tad better, SNH, Skidmore x2, and S.Maine...that adds another 6-0-2 to those teams. Kind of a wash.
I was giving Manhatanville the benefit of the doubt.
Again, I'm not challenging the fact that the ECAC West isn't made up of a bunch of good teams. If Morrisville, Curry, Fredonia, and or Potsdam were to schedule similar teams they would still probably end up losing keeping their record the same. So say Curry schedules games against the bottom 5 NCAA DIII teams and brings that number up into the .720 range...are they a .720 team compared to a team that has scheduled ECAC West teams and other top 15 teams and have a .720?? No. Curry benifits from having played in the ECAC NE. Fredonia...take out their ECAC W NC games and they've played two against powerhouses J&W (not the rootbeer) and Assumption, we all know what happens when you assume. Potsdam is maybe a tad better, SNH, Skidmore x2, and S.Maine...that adds another 6-0-2 to those teams. Kind of a wash.
Hockeyfan2113
New member
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
Oswego's NC:
Wins: Elmira 2x, Utica, Conn College, Curry, Hamilton, Hobart
Losses: Neumann Utica
6-2 record, since everyone is going back and forth against Curry I am dropping since No West teams lost to them and do i really need to analyze Conn College and Hamilton?
Elmira has struggled OOC which is a fact.
Just saying, everyone plays some good teams and some bad teams. but you can never know what you are going to face. Fredonia made it to the SUNYAC championship...who saw that coming? Geneseo teeters back and forth. Someone mentioned they beat Hobart 6-2 but also lost to them 4-2.
Besides why dont you go complain about Amherst? They are #4 in the nation and went 3-2-1 OOC and the best win there was Salem State(enough said) while losing to Utica and Hobart and tying Manhattanville.
Oswego's NC:
Wins: Elmira 2x, Utica, Conn College, Curry, Hamilton, Hobart
Losses: Neumann Utica
6-2 record, since everyone is going back and forth against Curry I am dropping since No West teams lost to them and do i really need to analyze Conn College and Hamilton?
Elmira has struggled OOC which is a fact.
Just saying, everyone plays some good teams and some bad teams. but you can never know what you are going to face. Fredonia made it to the SUNYAC championship...who saw that coming? Geneseo teeters back and forth. Someone mentioned they beat Hobart 6-2 but also lost to them 4-2.
Besides why dont you go complain about Amherst? They are #4 in the nation and went 3-2-1 OOC and the best win there was Salem State(enough said) while losing to Utica and Hobart and tying Manhattanville.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
Thanks for the spelling correction... I'm only Italian by association. (Your post could use some proof-reading, too, but Life is too short for that.)
The uscho.com coach's poll is pretty much meaningless; it's a shot in the dark, at best. No way in the world that Wisconsin-Stout's coach has any idea whatsoever how Amherst looks on the ice, for instance. That's why I like objective criteria such as PW, as flawed at that is.
Thanks for the spelling correction... I'm only Italian by association. (Your post could use some proof-reading, too, but Life is too short for that.)
The uscho.com coach's poll is pretty much meaningless; it's a shot in the dark, at best. No way in the world that Wisconsin-Stout's coach has any idea whatsoever how Amherst looks on the ice, for instance. That's why I like objective criteria such as PW, as flawed at that is.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
So, in essence, you're saying that if the lesser SUNYAC teams didn't schedule the W, they'd have better records..?
Yup.
And remember (if you have the capacity to remember stuff) that RPI/SOS factors-in results against common opponents, and their records as well.
It's the best yardstick available in D-3. The poll means nothing.
So, in essence, you're saying that if the lesser SUNYAC teams didn't schedule the W, they'd have better records..?
Yup.
And remember (if you have the capacity to remember stuff) that RPI/SOS factors-in results against common opponents, and their records as well.
It's the best yardstick available in D-3. The poll means nothing.
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
Who said anything about Amherst..? (But,yes,they are over-rated.)
Anyway, I never said that the SUNYAC sucks. It clearly does not. It's a relatively large conference, so there are going to be extremes as a matter of course, especially at this level of play. All I was saying in the first place is that the W is much, much better as a whole, and that is indisputable on any logical level.
D-3 hockey is a hot mess; still a beauty-contest wearing blinders. Nothing much seems to be decided with any degree of objectivity. I would love to see some form of the PWR or the KRACH determine how things play out, if only to lend some integrity to the process.
Who said anything about Amherst..? (But,yes,they are over-rated.)
Anyway, I never said that the SUNYAC sucks. It clearly does not. It's a relatively large conference, so there are going to be extremes as a matter of course, especially at this level of play. All I was saying in the first place is that the W is much, much better as a whole, and that is indisputable on any logical level.
D-3 hockey is a hot mess; still a beauty-contest wearing blinders. Nothing much seems to be decided with any degree of objectivity. I would love to see some form of the PWR or the KRACH determine how things play out, if only to lend some integrity to the process.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012
I will agree that ECAC-West as associate SUNYAC members, (like Utica wants to be) would consistently be above the SUNYAC bottom feeders. But their "subset" in-conference percentage would be less than .500 - and if LVC were still around ...
BTW, Proof reading is for liquor stores - teasing is for the forum.
I will agree that ECAC-West as associate SUNYAC members, (like Utica wants to be) would consistently be above the SUNYAC bottom feeders. But their "subset" in-conference percentage would be less than .500 - and if LVC were still around ...
BTW, Proof reading is for liquor stores - teasing is for the forum.