USA Hockey National Championships

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Feeling much better about myself, I visited the U16 Assabet Red Major schedule.... practices and games every Sunday in February (during the High School season).

Can I stop now?

Feel worse about yourself again - I finished the analysis that you started by cherry picking club teams that supported your thesis. Here's a broader analysis of NE Tier 1 teams (pretty much all teams play a Christmas tournament) - see below - I'm sure I missed a few. Of the 19 U16 and U19 teams listed, 14 (74%) have no activity between Thanksgiving and end February other than a Christmas tournament. 1 had 3 practices over the period (basically nothing) and Assabet had Sundays in February (which was silly since they weren't even playing in Nationals). 3 of the teams (all in CT) had regularly schedule Sunday events across the whole period (16%). So, IN THE VAST MAJORITY, club teams are not active during the high/prep school season in New England (by the way, Buffalo is not in New England so I don't have a clue why you listed their events - I have no insight into upstate NY high school or club hockey and I didn't say anything about it). If you don't want the overlap you have a 74% chance to avoid it by picking any of the club teams that don't schedule over the school season. So - you're wrong.

You claim I am making a case for overlapping high/prep school and club seasons, but I am not -= wrong again. What I am making a case for (pretty conclusively) is that New England already has a situation like MN where club hockey is a Fall (and in the event of those qualifying for Nationals Spring) sport and high/prep school hockey is a Winter sport with little if any overlap. Just like MN with the Fall Elite league and High School seasons. So - you're wrong.

- East Coast Wizards U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Massachusetts Spitfires U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Bay State Breakers U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Charles River Blazers U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February (far as I can tell)
- Islanders U16 and U19 - Don't believe they have any activities between Thanksgiving and end of February but have to confess this one is harder to ferret out
- Boston Jr Eagles U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Assabet Valley U16 - Some practices/games in February (as I already noted prior to your post)
- North Shore Vipers U16 and U19 - No activities between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Mid-Fairfield Stars U19 - 3 practices between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Mid-Fairfield Stars U16 - Pretty full schedule between Thanksgiving and end of February
- Connecticut Polar Bears U16 and U19 - Pretty full schedule between Thanksgiving and end of February

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Feel worse about yourself again - Of the 19 U16 and U19 teams listed, 14 (74%) have no activity between Thanksgiving and end February other than a Christmas tournament. So - you're wrong.

Here is the quote I objected to... YOUR QUOTE:

"The U16 and U19 club teams play in the Fall and stop playing (except for maybe a Christmas tournament) when the high school/prep school season starts. The teams that qualify for Nationals pick up again after the end of the high/prep school season."

So "in New England" is really "in Massachusetts". And "in Massachusetts" is not every team.

And you never admitted to your false Little League claim either.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

By the way CrossCheck... perfect name for you by the way.

Here is you other quote: "I'm not sure what you two are going on about. In New England, we effectively already have the "MN model".

No you don't. The WHOLE point of this discussion is that kids take almost a week off of school to go to Nationals. I don't hear any solutions from you on that. Just critique. It's easy to **** on the tent when you don't have to sleep in it!

 

[giwan]

Easy just play two sports at the same time.

More reasons to move Club hockey to summer. So kids can play other sports in Fall and Spring!

Read this article: http://changingthegameproject.com/the-perils-of-single-sport-participation/

If you don't go to the link, here are some excerpts:

Pete Carroll, former USC and now Seattle Seahawks Football coach, says here “The first questions I’ll ask about a kid are, ‘What other sports does he play? What does he do? What are his positions? Is he a big hitter in baseball? Is he a pitcher? Does he play hoops?’ All of those things are important to me. I hate that kids don’t play three sports in high school. I think that they should play year-round and get every bit of it that they can through that experience. I really, really don’t favor kids having to specialize in one sport. Even [at USC], I want to be the biggest proponent for two-sport athletes on the college level. I want guys that are so special athletically, and so competitive, that they can compete in more than one sport.”

Dom Starsia, University of Virginia men’s lacrosse: “My trick question to young campers is always, ‘How do you learn the concepts of team offense in lacrosse or team defense in lacrosse in the off-season, when you’re not playing with your team?’ The answer is by playing basketball, by playing hockey and by playing soccer and those other team games, because many of those principles are exactly the same. Probably 95 percent [of our players] are multi-sport athletes. It’s always a bit strange to me if somebody is not playing other sports in high school.”

Steve Nash, who got his first basketball at age 13 and credits his soccer background for making him a great basketball player, a similar story to the 100 professional athletes interviewed in Ethan Skolnick and Dr. Andrea Korn’s Raising Your Game .

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Here is the quote I objected to... YOUR QUOTE:

"The U16 and U19 club teams play in the Fall and stop playing (except for maybe a Christmas tournament) when the high school/prep school season starts. The teams that qualify for Nationals pick up again after the end of the high/prep school season."

So "in New England" is really "in Massachusetts". And "in Massachusetts" is not every team.

And you never admitted to your false Little League claim either.

MANY of the MA club players play for prep/high school teams throughout New England - CT, RI, NH, ME (not so much VT) - so my statements are completely accurate. True that the two CT club teams I looked at are year-round - so don't play for them. Roughly 3/4 of NE club teams I listed are out of prep/high school season teams (and adding the couple of teams that only have a couple of practices during the season brings it to ~85%), which is exactly the MN model. The only missing element is the local HS affiliation - I understand and respect the MN passion for this aspect, but personally don't find it that compelling. My statements on this topic are accurate, yours are not.

I didn't see the LL thing you're referring to ...in NE qualifying for LL Districts/Regionals/etc. starts end of May/early June when kids are still in school here if that addresses your comment.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

By the way CrossCheck... perfect name for you by the way.

Here is you other quote: "I'm not sure what you two are going on about. In New England, we effectively already have the "MN model".

No you don't. The WHOLE point of this discussion is that kids take almost a week off of school to go to Nationals. I don't hear any solutions from you on that. Just critique. It's easy to **** on the tent when you don't have to sleep in it!

I'm not CrossCheck and a quick review will show several exchanges he/she and I have had. This lack of research is consistent with your previous posts.

The point of this discussion is NOT about Nationals. You are making it that now that you lost your argument that NE clubs play through HS/prep season. I'm comfortable with the current Nationals system and my experience is that girls (even those going to highly challenging academic prep schools such as Choate, Loomis Chaffee, Andover, St Pauls, etc.) are able to work their academics through the Nationals by collaborating with their schools. Part of being a national HS level athlete is learning how to balance athletics with other activities and Nationals plays a role by forcing players to learn time management. Which BTW, is an important part of high school education for those seeking success in college and/or life. So I wouldn't change Nationals - that's my recommendation.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Very articulate post HE33.

Really? You guys who support missing a week of school and are in favor of the the exorbitant costs associated with Nationals are not thinking about the student-athletes, their families, or what's in the best interests of growing the game.

 

[Genbeau]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Really? You guys who support missing a week of school and are in favor of the the exorbitant costs associated with Nationals are not thinking about the student-athletes, their families, or what's in the best interests of growing the game.

You've got some salient points but 2 things to remember about Nationals, 1) the vast majority of teams don't make it to Nationals therefore most kids/families not effected and 2) If your D's team does qualify, there's a chance, for better or for worse, that they fall during spring break. 2 of the 3 years my D's teams qualified they fell during her break. You make a good point but I wouldn't hang my hat on it. To me, the real Chinese Water Torture as it pertains to missing school are the NAHA's (effects some kids/not all), Stoney's, Chicago/Minny/Detroit/Metro Toronto showcases. Even league play!

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

You've got some salient points but 2 things to remember about Nationals, 1) the vast majority of teams don't make it to Nationals therefore most kids/families not effected and 2) If your D's team does qualify, there's a chance, for better or for worse, that they fall during spring break. 2 of the 3 years my D's teams qualified they fell during her break. You make a good point but I wouldn't hang my hat on it. To me, the real Chinese Water Torture as it pertains to missing school are the NAHA's (effects some kids/not all), Stoney's, Chicago/Minny/Detroit/Metro Toronto showcases. Even league play!

Just an FYI... I've been escorting a child to Nationals since 2007 (every year). Not once did it fall on spring break.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Really? You guys who support missing a week of school and are in favor of the the exorbitant costs associated with Nationals are not thinking about the student-athletes, their families, or what's in the best interests of growing the game.

The concept of having summer as the club season doesn't solve the cost issue of Nationals. The only thing that will do that is not having Nationals. Someone will always have to fly and stay. They at least move it around the country - we were in the Upper Midwest, New England, Mid-Atlantic, and CA for Nationals at some point.

I honestly don't remember Nationals ever falling on a Spring Break for my kids, but that would be a state by state thing of course and is different pretty much everywhere.

 

[Genbeau]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Just an FYI... I've been escorting a child to Nationals since 2007 (every year). Not once did it fall on spring break.

yes, your 4/2 post mentioned your kids have been attending Nationals for a dozen years (fuzzy math, but I'm splitting hairs). A few days later you mentioned you'd been attending for a long, long time. (Then again today.) Some kids would need to miss school with your Labor Day Nationals scenario b/c their school years have already begun.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

The biggest issue with Nationals is it does NOT need to be so extended. ie one game a day? They all grew up playing two a day since forever. Get it done.

Your team does not have to go to Nationals, I believe you have to agree with 24-48 hours after qualifying that you will or will not. Have also seen where some girls individually chose not to go. Take it for what it's worth but we each have priorities.

USA Hockey could easily do a better job but they must get easy kickback money, but could it be worse than FIFA? Hopefully not

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

yes, your 4/2 post mentioned your kids have been attending Nationals for a dozen years (fuzzy math, but I'm splitting hairs). A few days later you mentioned you'd been attending for a long, long time. (Then again today.) Some kids would need to miss school with your Labor Day Nationals scenario b/c their school years have already begun.

Labor Day weekend is a 3-day weekend. You can get this tournament done in 4, with 4th day being championship game in the AM. So everyone misses school on Friday (half day in many school systems) and some miss Tuesday. Much less school missed than currently. My kid missed 4 1/2 days this year.

Fuzzy math was because I didn't do the math and still not sure I have it right. Anyway, I've been going a lot longer than most parents and completely sick of Nationals - cost, time, and lack of any meaning.

 

[Genbeau]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Labor Day weekend is a 3-day weekend. You can get this tournament done in 4, with 4th day being championship game in the AM. So everyone misses school on Friday (half day in many school systems) and some miss Tuesday. Much less school missed than currently. My kid missed 4 1/2 days this year.

Fuzzy math was because I didn't do the math and still not sure I have it right. Anyway, I've been going a lot longer than most parents and completely sick of Nationals - cost, time, and lack of any meaning.

One hurdle to think about (maybe even pole vault, it's a big one) is the competing NAHA Labor Day Tourney. This tourney invites many of the top teams from both the US and Canada. I suppose one might have to choose between which one to attend.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

This is the part I don't quite understand. If it costs too much is meaningless and you are sick of it, why go?
My daughters have gone and enjoyed it. They have missed a few days of school, but they were able to manage their schoolwork. I enjoyed going to watch high level hockey.

Can it be improved? Absolutely. It is too long. Have each team have one day with two games. Have Day 1 be evening games, Day 2 be midday games, and Day 3 have morning and first playoff. Day 4 is finals, since USA Hockey things we don't need quarterfinal round. (Don't get me started on that one) If you did that, teams could fly out Thursday morning and return Sunday night. 3 nights hotels, 2 missed days of school. NBD.

We have to go. It's part of the commitment to being on a team. You can't just abandon your team, right?

I agree with your improvement plan.

 

[harrow18]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Yes, must go if team goes. We have enough teams in Mass that you could conceivably pick a good team, but one that still won't necessarily make nationals. But if you (or she) wants to be on the best team possible or at least a very good team, then I guess you still end up in your quandary.

NAHA is a very good tourney (except the short games) that does have multiple games per day to ensure the tourney does not last too long. Would hate to lose NAHA to move Nationals. Plus from my experience, late August is not a time when every girl is in optimum hockey shape. Late March/early April makes a little more sense from that perspective. BTW< I don't think ther eis a perfect answer once kids get to HS.

As a former youth player, collegiate player and now youth coach - I'm not quite understanding how this thread can go on and on for 9 pages. USA Hockey is what works and what the teams play under. Nationals, albeit a money fest for some, is what these kids pride themselves on. Sure the excitement and novelty may wear off as the kids get older and they continue to go time and time again. but I'll tell you this much, I am one of the unlucky ones whose teams were never quite good enough to make it (would go so far only to be beat out by Assabet year in and year out) and while I've come close having coached for the past 5 years, my squads have still only made it as far as regionals. I'm definitely old enough to have the attitude of "oh this is lame" and my bank account would certainly be hit by a quick trip across the country but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't jump at the opportunity to lead a team or have had the chance to play in Nationals and tell all my non-hockey playing friends back home. Nationals when it comes down to it, are the be all end all. Its a privilege, right and declaration of all the hard work these kids have put it to be the best they can be. Sure, the times have changed - teams are practicing together less and less and there's more and more "all-star" squads but in the end, the majority are playing for the right to proclaim themselves National Champions, the ultimate honor no matter what age or sport.

The suggestion of moving nationals makes no sense whatsoever. National wrap up in early April, spring seasons are beginning and kids have the right to play whatever sport they please at this time. In fact, one year I forgo playing a spring sport not due to my USA Hockey Travel team but due to the fact I wanted to play spring hockey and join in on tournaments in Canada and in the northeast during those months. Nationals never forced me to do that, my club hockey never forced me to do that. I did it because I wanted to play more. Let the kids do what they want, play what they want and enjoy themselves in the spring and summer. If that means spring hockey, Beantown tournies and trips to Canada then so be it. The idea that "oh no kids are missing 4 days of school" is also quite the conundrum to me. These kids are in the upper echelon of athletes and while they may not all be the best students or have the best character, drive and work ethic -they are athletes non the less and throughout my life, one thing has been clear - time management and the ability to rebound and work hard only benefits you every step of the way. If these kids can't figure out a way to contact their teachers prior, do work on the road and take care of the make up work for a shot at playing at Nationals, well then that's a problem all the more bigger then Nationals themselves. When it comes down to it, scour the college profiles these days and you'll see it quickly noted that these kids, "went to Nationals...led Nationals in goals, won Nationals in...etc", you won't see "didn't participate in Nationals because I felt I couldn't make up my homework for 4 days". Trust me, growing up with 3 siblings all playing hockey in a lower-middle class family, I know the trials and tribulations of paying for hockey. I get that Nationals are a big hit to the checkbook. But give me a hotel room with my family crowded in, lobbies full of parents and a team that's turned into family, all while having a chance to return home to our friends in our respective hometowns and proclaim that we were the number 1 team in the nation, man, that would be awesome.

We have teams playing in the Stanley Cup playoffs that hockey didn't exist in 20 years ago, new college teams sprouting up in Arizona, Indiana; the sport is growing and that's great. But sticking to the logic of club teams should be playing in the off season and girls should play for their high schools or prep team only, simply doesn't work. High school teams don't exist for the majority of these girls and the ultimate goal of having your best players play at the highest level to further better themselves and hopefully achieve their goals of playing collegiality (or even professionally and nationally) is unattainable if we were to resort to that. Prep schools are a great, viable option for many but also doesn't work for others. So, let the kids play. Let them play high school, prep, boys, club - whatever they chose. They have their shots at playing fall sports, playing spring sports, getting recruited, doing their homework, hanging with friends, going out, working out or playing hockey but its up to them what they chose. When it comes down to it, its the work THEY want to put in and what THEY want to get from this game. Let's let them play through the season and finish it out on a high note at Nationals and not try and disrupt the system, spending 9 pages of forum thread on how to change it simply because it doesn't fit the normal "club sport" system, costs some money and your kids miss a couple days of school (I DO DEFINITELY AGREE IT SHOULD BE SHORTENED )

Sorry for the novel folks but when I'm continuously bored at work and keep refreshing USCHO to help me through the day its been getting quite tiresome to see this same ole thread continue on and on and on...

 

[Double Eagle]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Just an FYI... I've been escorting a child to Nationals since 2007 (every year). Not once did it fall on spring break.

Spring Break in Massachusetts is as follow:

Public/Parochial: one week starting with 3rd Monday in April
Prep: two weeks in mid-late March depending on the school.

Nationals will never fall during the public/parochial break. It can overlap with the Prep school break. In 2015 - most private schools were on break as Nationals began and only missed school for the finals on Monday.
In 2016 - Most private schools were on break the two weeks before Nationals began, so this meant 3 1/2 - 4 school days missed.

 

[rangersrule]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

As a former youth player, collegiate player and now youth coach - I'm not quite understanding how this thread can go on and on for 9 pages. USA Hockey is what works and what the teams play under. Nationals, albeit a money fest for some, is what these kids pride themselves on. Sure the excitement and novelty may wear off as the kids get older and they continue to go time and time again. but I'll tell you this much, I am one of the unlucky ones whose teams were never quite good enough to make it (would go so far only to be beat out by Assabet year in and year out) and while I've come close having coached for the past 5 years, my squads have still only made it as far as regionals. I'm definitely old enough to have the attitude of "oh this is lame" and my bank account would certainly be hit by a quick trip across the country but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't jump at the opportunity to lead a team or have had the chance to play in Nationals and tell all my non-hockey playing friends back home. Nationals when it comes down to it, are the be all end all. Its a privilege, right and declaration of all the hard work these kids have put it to be the best they can be. Sure, the times have changed - teams are practicing together less and less and there's more and more "all-star" squads but in the end, the majority are playing for the right to proclaim themselves National Champions, the ultimate honor no matter what age or sport.

The suggestion of moving nationals makes no sense whatsoever. National wrap up in early April, spring seasons are beginning and kids have the right to play whatever sport they please at this time. In fact, one year I forgo playing a spring sport not due to my USA Hockey Travel team but due to the fact I wanted to play spring hockey and join in on tournaments in Canada and in the northeast during those months. Nationals never forced me to do that, my club hockey never forced me to do that. I did it because I wanted to play more. Let the kids do what they want, play what they want and enjoy themselves in the spring and summer. If that means spring hockey, Beantown tournies and trips to Canada then so be it. The idea that "oh no kids are missing 4 days of school" is also quite the conundrum to me. These kids are in the upper echelon of athletes and while they may not all be the best students or have the best character, drive and work ethic -they are athletes non the less and throughout my life, one thing has been clear - time management and the ability to rebound and work hard only benefits you every step of the way. If these kids can't figure out a way to contact their teachers prior, do work on the road and take care of the make up work for a shot at playing at Nationals, well then that's a problem all the more bigger then Nationals themselves. When it comes down to it, scour the college profiles these days and you'll see it quickly noted that these kids, "went to Nationals...led Nationals in goals, won Nationals in...etc", you won't see "didn't participate in Nationals because I felt I couldn't make up my homework for 4 days". Trust me, growing up with 3 siblings all playing hockey in a lower-middle class family, I know the trials and tribulations of paying for hockey. I get that Nationals are a big hit to the checkbook. But give me a hotel room with my family crowded in, lobbies full of parents and a team that's turned into family, all while having a chance to return home to our friends in our respective hometowns and proclaim that we were the number 1 team in the nation, man, that would be awesome.

We have teams playing in the Stanley Cup playoffs that hockey didn't exist in 20 years ago, new college teams sprouting up in Arizona, Indiana; the sport is growing and that's great. But sticking to the logic of club teams should be playing in the off season and girls should play for their high schools or prep team only, simply doesn't work. High school teams don't exist for the majority of these girls and the ultimate goal of having your best players play at the highest level to further better themselves and hopefully achieve their goals of playing collegiality (or even professionally and nationally) is unattainable if we were to resort to that. Prep schools are a great, viable option for many but also doesn't work for others. So, let the kids play. Let them play high school, prep, boys, club - whatever they chose. They have their shots at playing fall sports, playing spring sports, getting recruited, doing their homework, hanging with friends, going out, working out or playing hockey but its up to them what they chose. When it comes down to it, its the work THEY want to put in and what THEY want to get from this game. Let's let them play through the season and finish it out on a high note at Nationals and not try and disrupt the system, spending 9 pages of forum thread on how to change it simply because it doesn't fit the normal "club sport" system, costs some money and your kids miss a couple days of school (I DO DEFINITELY AGREE IT SHOULD BE SHORTENED )

Sorry for the novel folks but when I'm continuously bored at work and keep refreshing USCHO to help me through the day its been getting quite tiresome to see this same ole thread continue on and on and on...

AMEN!!! This may be one of the best posts of the year.. Hockey is a tough sport. A sport that requires a great deal of hard work, sacrifice, planning, and dedication. People need to stop making things "easier" for everyone! We have become a nation of whiners! If a kid loves to play a particular sport (it doesn't even have to be hockey) and she plays it 12 months a year, all we tend to hear these days is "oh my gosh! She will be burned out by the start of the next season!" BS!! Ask kids in worn torn countries if they are "burned out" of having to survive daily wondering where their next meal is coming from or if they will survive the day! We have become so soft! If a talented hockey player can't figure out how to manage their studies over the 5-6 day period that Nationals takes place then how on earth will they EVER balance their academic and athletic schedules while playing D-1 hockey?

I really hope this thread comes to an end too!

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Last two posts ... In my view:

1. Nationals are meaningless. Programs are run differently across country. Some show up and have played 70 games together, others 15. What does winning prove?
2. They charge $40 admission. It's a money grab.
3. Do the math and your spending minimum $1,200 for the week before airfare and rental car. Cost me $2,400 this year, approximately. It's already an expensive sport, let's keep making this more elitist, right? Pretty soon it's just the 1 percenters who will be able to afford it.
4. Kids miss 4 days of school. Yes, the kids figure it out, but in a good school, it's stressful.

Love how we're comparing playing hockey to kids in worn-torn countries. I don't get it.
You love the idea of leading a team to nationals. It's not about you. I know I've taken you out of context. But you don't address the 4 issues above... although you do say "shorten it". I'm with you on that.

You can end this discussion, or ignore it. Doesn't matter to me. But I know what I know - this National's thing is about USA Hockey and the Club Organizations making money. The hotel kick-backs nauseate me. Any college coach will tell you - If the decision is $2,000 to go to Nationals or, for example, to hire a trainer. Hire a trainer wins every time.