USA Hockey National Championships

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Soccer (at least here in MD - fall sport).

IIRC MA (MIAA) rules say HS comes first and all conflicts must be resolved in favor of the HS. Violate it and your HS season is toast.

Joe, not 100% sure, but I think in MA there is a big pre-season kickoff tournament for Club teams in March (like REALLY big). I know for a fact that US Soccer National Championships are in Jun/Jul. I think that points to Spring as the Club season. Fall would be the High School season. My daughters played Club soccer and it started indoors in Jan/Feb and then went outdoors as soon as weather permitted.

Having said that, I also know kids that play 11 months a year. Not good in my opinion.

 

[joecct]

Joe, not 100% sure, but I think in MA there is a big pre-season kickoff tournament for Club teams in March (like REALLY big). I know for a fact that US Soccer National Championships are in Jun/Jul. I think that points to Spring as the Club season. Fall would be the High School season. My daughters played Club soccer and it started indoors in Jan/Feb and then went outdoors as soon as weather permitted.

Having said that, I also know kids that play 11 months a year. Not good in my opinion.

About USAH - they preach that kids should not play hockey year round. But the rink owners need to sell ice during the summer, so we have summer camps, all star teams and tournaments, summer leagues, etc. that keep junior on skates 12 months a year.

It used to be Hockey Night in Boston was a big deal. Now, not so much. Too much other hockey thit is going on in the summer that the product has become diluted.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

What will eventually kill the Minnesota system is the fact that a high percentage of 14-year-old players have parents. As Tier 1 programs get their foot in the door, the parents of elite players will get together with the parents of other elite players to get embroidered jackets and complain about cost of travel, while the high school programs will be left without the top level of talent.

This has got to be one of the best posts in this entire discussion over the past 2-3 weeks. I love the line about players having parents! But more importantly, you make the point very simply - high school programs get depleted by Tier 1 programs.

As a result, I've seen local momentum and excitement for girls ice hockey diminish. In turn, prospective young players choose other sports. And these other sports have it figured out. Their Club teams don't steal from the high schools.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

If anything, the MN system will feel more pressure in the future. That's too bad, but the Shattucks, USHLs, OS, Machines, and O/WHLSs are only going to increase in the future. They are not likely to wait until the summer so the HS leagues can thrive.

I unfortunately agree. I just wish USA Hockey wasn't directly complicit in helping to keep girls high school hockey mediocre in quality and number of participants. It runs counter to what their mission should be, and what would ultimately improve the numbers and level of play in Club hockey.

We need 5 year old girls watching high school games with big crowds cheering them on saying "mommy, I want to do THAT".

 

[pokechecker]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

So what you're saying is that the 16 players from Minnesota who helped the USA win gold at the IIHF Under-18 Women's World Championship are not elite? And on the men's side 4 of the 6 goals scored yesterday against Sweden in the U18 Worlds were Minnesota high school players. How all these players managed to make their national teams without being "elite" is one big mystery.

you gotta understand, the bar for elite is different out east, apparently they hand out "elite" like participation trophies, whereas here, you have to earn it

I'm not sure how the poster came up with there is a deficit of elite players coming from MN, based on All-American status
in the past 3 years here are the AA who came up thru the high school system:
Brandt, Cameranesi, Stecklein, Ramsey, McMillen, and throw in Bona as an elite player (PK nominee)
and Amsley-benzie from UND
last year 3 were named AA, the year before that 5, and the year before that 3
but according to some here, we could probably throw in a few more considering the low bar set out east for being an elite player

We need 5 year old girls watching high school games with big crowds cheering them on saying "mommy, I want to do THAT".

and that, is exactly why boys and girls HS hockey is popular/successful in MN
5 years olds do tell their parents they want to do that (play in the HS tournament) (or play for the Gophers) I don't think you non-MN people understand how powerful the goal of playing for ones HS team in MN is, even kids that went on to win gold in the Olympics or the Stanley Cup have said accomplishing those two feats were almost as good as playing in the MN HS tournament

a few boys leave because there are big bucks to be made, not so with the girls

 

[SconniePuck]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Nice article from a neutral party

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/wom...makenna-webster-presley-norby-gracie-ostertag

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

and that, is exactly why boys and girls HS hockey is popular/successful in MN
5 years olds do tell their parents they want to do that (play in the HS tournament) (or play for the Gophers) I don't think you non-MN people understand how powerful the goal of playing for ones HS team in MN is, even kids that went on to win gold in the Olympics or the Stanley Cup have said accomplishing those two feats were almost as good as playing in the MN HS tournament

I'm not from MN and you're right, in the northeast we don't have 5 year old girls begging to play ice hockey.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

If I were in charge of USA Hockey, here's how it would look:

-Club Season Opens: June 1 (you get your 10 eligibility games in starting now)

-Mid-Season Tournaments: 4th of July weekend there is a northeast and a midwest tournament (helps players get their 10 game eligibility).

-Games: July and early August is chock-full of games. Maybe even some mini-tournaments

-State Tournaments: Second week in August, decide who's going to regionals

-Regional Tourneys: Third week in August, to decide who's going to nationals in 2.5 weeks

-National Tourney: Labor Day weekend (3 day tourney, games are two 18 minute periods (or three 12 mins) so we're not there for 6 days
(flights will be expensive but within 2 week booking window; USA Hockey can pre-book hotels and not take a kick-back to keep costs down)

*Note: If you start earlier than June 1 (which you could) the downside is that players at Prep and Hockey High Schools (Shattuck for example) won't be able to play for their local regional team, which will make it hard for them. Plus, HS final exams are in May/June.

*Note2: National development camp happens in June/July. Games (some or all) played there count toward the 10 game eligibility requirement.


Results:
1. College coaches,will love that all major recruiting in the US will be in summer.
2. Players don't miss school for hockey.
3. Many players will decide to stay home and play for their high school.
4. Many players will still go to prep because competition better (except MN). But as local HS competition improves (because kids stay home), more and more kids will see local HS as a viable option.
5. Shattuck, OS, NAHA and the rest of the "hockey high schools" will still get players who want 360 degrees of hockey.
6. Kids play other sports too (OMG). College coaches also like players who play soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, softball (I'm talking to you goalies - the best glove goalies played softball/baseball), etc because it develops other skills that are helpful in hockey.
7. Young girls will watch girls HS hockey and ask mom and dad if they can play!!!!!!!

Transition:
Not a hard transition. Between end of Nationals and June 1, Clubs hold tryouts. Start season on June 1. In following years, clubs can hold tryouts at anytime that is convenient... fall, winter, early spring, whatever.

Other:
I think club teams will still do informal stuff in the fall (chasing those $$'s) and that's fine. I'd like to see the Club teams sponsor off-season workouts in the fall. Get them read for the high school season. That's exactly what college coaches want.

 

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

You still don't get it. Most of the girls playing don't have the luxury of having a high school team to play for. What are they supposed to do during the other 9 months?

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I'm not sure how the poster came up with there is a deficit of elite players coming from MN, based on All-American status
in the past 3 years here are the AA who came up thru the high school system:
Brandt, Cameranesi, Stecklein, Ramsey, McMillen, and throw in Bona as an elite player (PK nominee)
and Amsley-benzie from UND
last year 3 were named AA, the year before that 5, and the year before that 3
but according to some here, we could probably throw in a few more considering the low bar set out east for being an elite player

I'd be happy to respond. The point of my original post is that the Minnesota system is better at creating lots of very good players than it is creating world-class players. As evidence to my point, I pointed out that, while something like a third of American-born D1 players hail from Minnesota, nothing like a third of the world-class players are Minnesotan.

Notice a couple things:
- I said 'American-born D1 players'. There are a lot of foreign-born players playing D1, but we are discussing varieties of US development models, so I limited my comments to American players.
- My stats came from a recent-vintage recruiting post on this very board - 2014-15 Div 1 Commitments dated 10/23/2014. Minnesota produced 41/115 American players. (MA had 16/115).
- I never said that Minnesota does not produce lots of elite players. I am aware as anyone of the various Minnesota girls making their marks NCAA and international hockey. I would certainly hope that if a third of the players are coming from one state that some of them are great players. My point is that other places produce world-class players at a higher rate. I would point to Massachusetts as an example of my point.
- I stand by my statement that the Minnesota system creates hockey's middle class, but not necessarily its upper class. I view that as a feature, not a bug. You have to make choices, and I would rather create more opportunities.

 

[Rightnut]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

You still don't get it. Most of the girls playing don't have the luxury of having a high school team to play for. What are they supposed to do during the other 9 months?

Exactly.
Are you proposing that these girls play another sport during the 9 months that the MN and MA girls continue to refine their skills playing high school hockey? So, if you are not in MN or MA - your entire hockey season is comprised of June to Labor Day?

 

[pokechecker]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I'd be happy to respond. The point of my original post is that the Minnesota system is better at creating lots of very good players than it is creating world-class players. As evidence to my point, I pointed out that, while something like a third of American-born D1 players hail from Minnesota, nothing like a third of the world-class players are Minnesotan.

Notice a couple things:
- I said 'American-born D1 players'. There are a lot of foreign-born players playing D1, but we are discussing varieties of US development models, so I limited my comments to American players.
- My stats came from a recent-vintage recruiting post on this very board - 2014-15 Div 1 Commitments dated 10/23/2014. Minnesota produced 41/115 American players. (MA had 16/115).
- I never said that Minnesota does not produce lots of elite players. I am aware as anyone of the various Minnesota girls making their marks NCAA and international hockey. I would certainly hope that if a third of the players are coming from one state that some of them are great players. My point is that other places produce world-class players at a higher rate. I would point to Massachusetts as an example of my point.
- I stand by my statement that the Minnesota system creates hockey's middle class, but not necessarily its upper class. I view that as a feature, not a bug. You have to make choices, and I would rather create more opportunities.

oh, I see, if you cherry pick stats, what you say is true (kinda funny that you are changing your thesis)

you must really be impressed with North Dakota then, look at the whopping high percentage of elite players from that state

apparently then, MN is a fantastic place to cultivate blueliners, but forwards not so much, I say this based on 3/7 of the Olympic team hailing from there

statistics don't lie

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Exactly.
Are you proposing that these girls play another sport during the 9 months that the MN and MA girls continue to refine their skills playing high school hockey? So, if you are not in MN or MA - your entire hockey season is comprised of June to Labor Day?

I understand your concern, but the answer is no - all girls will have two seasons available to them.

Girls without high school options represents about 50% of all female high school players who register with USA Hockey (there are more states with high school hockey than just MN and MA). That number is more or less right, but even if it's not right, it doesn't matter. These girls will have the same options in winter as they have today. In other words, they can go to a hockey high school (NAHA, OS, etc), they can go to a prep school, they can play for a boys HS team (many states allow this if no girls team), or they can play for their regional Club team.

My hope is that girls hockey would grow, and other states would start offering HS hockey. But that's down the road.

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

oh, I see, if you cherry pick stats, what you say is true (kinda funny that you are changing your thesis)

you must really be impressed with North Dakota then, look at the whopping high percentage of elite players from that state

apparently then, MN is a fantastic place to cultivate blueliners, but forwards not so much, I say this based on 3/7 of the Olympic team hailing from there

statistics don't lie

It may be true that my stats are cherry-picked. I just chose one year because I don't want to do a huge amount of research to come up with a statistically significant percentage. I will bet you dinner at your choice of KFC that my stats hold together pretty well over the years, if you want to do the research.

I didn't change my thesis. I said that the Minnesota system is better at producing large numbers of good players than it is at producing elite players. If your interest is in producing elite players, then maybe you would consider bringing the top players from all over the country to a single location, like, maybe Ann Arbor, to name one spot. Then you put those players through a rigorous training program and schedule all kinds of tournaments.

The Minnesota system, where everybody stays home and plays for the local teams through HS, will benefit a larger number of players, but at the expense of developing the very top players to the maximum of their potential. My personal view is that this is a good trade-off, but it is a trade-off nevertheless.

Did I say that the Minnesota system makes elite players impossible? No, no I did not. I can name elite players from the Minnesota system.

Did I say that if you give me any two numbers, I can extrapolate into a trend? No, no I did not. You are mistaking an example for a thesis.

Now that I have stated my opinion in three different posts, maybe you want to overlook the details and address my contention. I may be wrong, and if you disagree I may learn something.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

You still don't get it. Most of the girls playing don't have the luxury of having a high school team to play for. What are they supposed to do during the other 9 months?

In the Plattsburgh, NY area sometimes the high school girls teams are from more than one school. For example the Beekmantown high school team has players from both Beekmantown and Chazy. Originally it was the Chazy Eagles, but it is now the Beekmantown Eagles. The two bordering districts just happen to have the same Mascot. No argument to worry about there !

 

[ne7minder]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Now that I have stated my opinion in three different posts, maybe you want to overlook the details and address my contention. I may be wrong, and if you disagree I may learn something.

You forget who you are dealing with. Pukechucker does not want understanding or agreement, he wants a fight, its what he does apparently.

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

You forget who you are dealing with. Pukechucker does not want understanding or agreement, he wants a fight, its what he does apparently.

I am sure he is, at heart, a fine fellow who is kind to small animals, a generous tipper, and one who extinguishes his campfires. He doesn't seem to be one you want at your table for the Debate Bowl, however.

 

[Rightnut]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I understand your concern, but the answer is no - all girls will have two seasons available to them.

Girls without high school options represents about 50% of all female high school players who register with USA Hockey (there are more states with high school hockey than just MN and MA). That number is more or less right, but even if it's not right, it doesn't matter. These girls will have the same options in winter as they have today. In other words, they can go to a hockey high school (NAHA, OS, etc), they can go to a prep school, they can play for a boys HS team (many states allow this if no girls team), or they can play for their regional Club team.
My hope is that girls hockey would grow, and other states would start offering HS hockey. But that's down the road.

I am probably just dense but I'm not understanding this regarding the Club team. I do appreciate your ideas and some change is necessary for sure. But didn't you say that the Club teams would start in June and run through September - i.e. Nationals? What is the regional Club team you are talking about? And who do they play and for what if all the other Clubs stopped in September and kids moved onto high school or prep school hockey? I think the point for most club teams outside of the hockey hotbeds is to avoid having to send your kid to a prep school or hockey high school and keep them home, where there is no girls high school option.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

So so so wrong. 0 for 3 in fact.

1. Wrong. MA allows kids to double roster. MN doesn't. That's the point. You came up with the game conflict rule... that's a subset of the rule that allows MA players to double roster. In other words, you are proving my point that MA doesn't follow the MN model.

2. You are 1000000000% wrong. There are club teams that practice and play throughout Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. Do you want me to send you my daughters 19U schedule from this past season to prove it? In fact, her Club team had a practice the same week as high school playoffs. I'm guessing you haven't had a kid in high school for awhile.

3. Bitter that my kids had a prep experience? Not a chance. But you completely miss the point, and I'm not going to make my point again and again for you.

Missed this in the flurry of posts.

1. Really no difference - fact is that they are dedicated to the high/prep school during the season (even if they practice/play on Sundays with their club team, which isn't the norm). And it is not just a game conflict rule - it is a practice/game conflict rule. During high school season, high/prep first in MA.

2. None of the following clubs play through the high/prep school season at the Tier 1 level - Assabet Valley (although I see the U16 Tier 1 team played a few games in Feb this year - that's new), Wizards, Charles River, Spitfires, Breakers. These are the more prominent teams in MA (Eagles and Islanders aren't here because I'm not as familiar with them). Unless they have qualified for Nationals why would they (except for prepping for the Christmas recruiting tournament)? Sure - send me your kid's club schedule (I'd be interested who she played for). I'm 2-3 years out.

3. Whatever on this one - re-read your statement and see if it doesn't sound bitter for whatever reason.

 

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I am probably just dense but I'm not understanding this regarding the Club team. I do appreciate your ideas and some change is necessary for sure. But didn't you say that the Club teams would start in June and run through September - i.e. Nationals? What is the regional Club team you are talking about? And who do they play and for what if all the other Clubs stopped in September and kids moved onto high school or prep school hockey? I think the point for most club teams outside of the hockey hotbeds is to avoid having to send your kid to a prep school or hockey high school and keep them home, where there is no girls high school option.

You're being hard on yourself. I need to communicate this scenario more completely.

For those not in the hockey hotbeds:

It's not easy to find games if you're not in a hockey hotbed. That's true no matter what the season. The Lady Ducks, for example, are in train, plane and automobile mode all winter. So let's take the Lady Ducks as an example and lay out what it would look like this new idea:

1. June - Labor Day: Lady Ducks practice, play a full schedule of games (with all those flights, I'm guessing you have to make a lot of money to play hockey and live in CA), and go to nationals. Just like past winters, just doing it in summer.

2. Winter: Since there is no high school hockey these players still have the following choices:
a) Go away to prep
b) Go away to a hockey high school
c) Play boys HS or Bantam/Midget
d) Play "winter season" Lady Ducks

Regarding "winter season", I think the Lady Ducks would still be in business for the winter because there would be a market for it. I would imagine it would be practice, off-ice conditioning, and regional games vs California Bantam and Midget teams (mostly boys, but some girls play on these teams... FYI, Lady Ducks play these teams now). They could go to an out-of-state tournament or two as well.

I'm not solving the problem of no local HS teams for the 50% of the girls who don't live in hockey hotbeds - they still have the same expensive options. But I am making it so that the girls can play HS sports and Club hockey in the winter, while doing the "heavy lifting" of playing travel hockey in the summer when there is no school conflict.