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University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
- Thread starter brianvf
- Start date
cross cheque
Make the playoffs, not war.
At least they didn't go backwards to the ushl
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
this offseason is going to hurt the sioux program for 2 or 3 years. i see the sioux as a bottom half wcha team this year. next year theyll lose kristo, blood, likely forbort, both goalies, a couple role players and 50/50 on nelson (islanders are going to get gun shy on letting guys develop too long in ncaas).. no way theyll contend the year after that. with grimaldi and miller being 1st rounders (especially if they go mid first), they will likely leave after their second year (maybe third- but heck, grimaldi is on record saying hed like to be in the nhl a year or two from now). ill be very surprised if you make the FF in the next 3 years. its going to take a while to recover from losing half your team (especially when the half the sioux have going forward is almost unanimously the bad half). just my $.02. and yes, i know its impossible to predict one year ahead much less 2 or 3.. but this offseason has been devastating for the sioux program and its not necessarily over.
this offseason is going to hurt the sioux program for 2 or 3 years. i see the sioux as a bottom half wcha team this year. next year theyll lose kristo, blood, likely forbort, both goalies, a couple role players and 50/50 on nelson (islanders are going to get gun shy on letting guys develop too long in ncaas).. no way theyll contend the year after that. with grimaldi and miller being 1st rounders (especially if they go mid first), they will likely leave after their second year (maybe third- but heck, grimaldi is on record saying hed like to be in the nhl a year or two from now). ill be very surprised if you make the FF in the next 3 years. its going to take a while to recover from losing half your team (especially when the half the sioux have going forward is almost unanimously the bad half). just my $.02. and yes, i know its impossible to predict one year ahead much less 2 or 3.. but this offseason has been devastating for the sioux program and its not necessarily over.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
North Dakota will be a top half team as they are significantly better than Tech, Mankato and Bemidji, and are far stronger than Minnesota, St Cloud and Anchorage. That being said, they're not going to fight for the MacNaughton, but should be on the same level as Wisconsin and Omaha to fight for 4th. I see DU, CC and Duluth fighting it out for the top three spots at this point. It's no fun losing players like Gregoire and Hextall, but considering that Blood, Kristo, Dell and Eidsness were all potential early departures and they decided to stay, it has been far from devastating.
What's interesting, is that you think North Dakota is going to have a ton of early departures from a very poor team. Typically, players from the better teams leave early. If Forbort, Nelson, Dell, Kristo, Grimaldi and Miller all leave early after next season, it will likely mean that those players had very successful seasons, and that would seemingly translate into plenty of Sioux victories. That being said, North Dakota fortunately has an excellent reputation among NHL clubs as a place to develop their prospects, and rarely do franchises pull their prospects out earlier than normal...other programs in the WCHA have the opposite reputation. The only way I see all of those guys leaving early (especially Miller and Nelson) is if North Dakota puts together a great season like this past year, and perhaps top it off with a title...not a bottom half finish.
North Dakota will be a top half team as they are significantly better than Tech, Mankato and Bemidji, and are far stronger than Minnesota, St Cloud and Anchorage. That being said, they're not going to fight for the MacNaughton, but should be on the same level as Wisconsin and Omaha to fight for 4th. I see DU, CC and Duluth fighting it out for the top three spots at this point. It's no fun losing players like Gregoire and Hextall, but considering that Blood, Kristo, Dell and Eidsness were all potential early departures and they decided to stay, it has been far from devastating.
What's interesting, is that you think North Dakota is going to have a ton of early departures from a very poor team. Typically, players from the better teams leave early. If Forbort, Nelson, Dell, Kristo, Grimaldi and Miller all leave early after next season, it will likely mean that those players had very successful seasons, and that would seemingly translate into plenty of Sioux victories. That being said, North Dakota fortunately has an excellent reputation among NHL clubs as a place to develop their prospects, and rarely do franchises pull their prospects out earlier than normal...other programs in the WCHA have the opposite reputation. The only way I see all of those guys leaving early (especially Miller and Nelson) is if North Dakota puts together a great season like this past year, and perhaps top it off with a title...not a bottom half finish.
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
fair enough. im surprised to hear you say you have a FAR STRONGER team than MN when Minny had a 5th place WCHA finish (and a winning record against top 10 teams. including taking the series against the sioux. the issue wasnt talent it was consistency and that is expected when you got 7 freshman playing every night) combined with the fact that the sioux lost way more this offseason. sure they lost cepis, hoeffel, and ness.. but budish back negates any one of those and the rest of last years seniors didnt produce anyway. we will see.
I see denver CC and possibly UNO battling for first with wisconsin, UM, st cloud and duluth rounding out the top 7. id predict the sioux to end in 8th.. maybe steal a series in the first round of the WCHA playoffs but missing the NCAAs.
in regards to players leaving early- you make good points there. but personally i dont even question that kristo is gone next year (i still think he may sign this summer). he was scouted heavily this year and is right now one of their top prospects. good or bad year he is gone. if forbort has a good year he will be seen as ready to sign. if he has a bad year the kings will sign him to develop him theirselves. top 15 picks rarely last 3 years in the college system. and that was my point with grimaldi and miller. the best thing that could happen to the sioux at this point, in this offseason, is for those 2 to slide to the end of the first or even the 2nd.
Sioux
fair enough. im surprised to hear you say you have a FAR STRONGER team than MN when Minny had a 5th place WCHA finish (and a winning record against top 10 teams. including taking the series against the sioux. the issue wasnt talent it was consistency and that is expected when you got 7 freshman playing every night) combined with the fact that the sioux lost way more this offseason. sure they lost cepis, hoeffel, and ness.. but budish back negates any one of those and the rest of last years seniors didnt produce anyway. we will see.
I see denver CC and possibly UNO battling for first with wisconsin, UM, st cloud and duluth rounding out the top 7. id predict the sioux to end in 8th.. maybe steal a series in the first round of the WCHA playoffs but missing the NCAAs.
in regards to players leaving early- you make good points there. but personally i dont even question that kristo is gone next year (i still think he may sign this summer). he was scouted heavily this year and is right now one of their top prospects. good or bad year he is gone. if forbort has a good year he will be seen as ready to sign. if he has a bad year the kings will sign him to develop him theirselves. top 15 picks rarely last 3 years in the college system. and that was my point with grimaldi and miller. the best thing that could happen to the sioux at this point, in this offseason, is for those 2 to slide to the end of the first or even the 2nd.
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carltonbarrett
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
Stinks that you guys are losing a lot of underclassmen in addition to heavy graduation losses. You're not alone though, BC is going through the same thing. Hopefully both teams will bounce back nicely....
Stinks that you guys are losing a lot of underclassmen in addition to heavy graduation losses. You're not alone though, BC is going through the same thing. Hopefully both teams will bounce back nicely....
cross cheque
Make the playoffs, not war.
Hostile and abusive names, litigation to follow.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
Minnesota split with North Dakota this past year, so not sure how that equals taking the series??
Honestly, your logic behind your picks doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. It seems as though you are predicting with your heart and not your head.
IMO, North Dakota is far stronger than Minnesota. Defensively it is not even close. North Dakota had one of the top teams defensively in the country last year, and that should be a strength for the squad this year as well. Offensively it should be closer this year than last, as North Dakota lost some significant firepower, but is reloading with some top end freshmen talent. Minnesota lost their top 3, and 4 of the top 5 scorers (all seniors who "didn't produce" according to you) and their top returning scorer is Haula who put up 24 points...not exactly a team that lights it up. You talk up Budish, but he hasn't been a world beater in his time in the lineup (9 goals in 46 games doesn't put too much fear into the opposition). Patterson is equal to Dell, so that aspect is basically a push, but North Dakota is stronger in just about every other aspect of the game.
Minnesota split with North Dakota this past year, so not sure how that equals taking the series??
Honestly, your logic behind your picks doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. It seems as though you are predicting with your heart and not your head.
IMO, North Dakota is far stronger than Minnesota. Defensively it is not even close. North Dakota had one of the top teams defensively in the country last year, and that should be a strength for the squad this year as well. Offensively it should be closer this year than last, as North Dakota lost some significant firepower, but is reloading with some top end freshmen talent. Minnesota lost their top 3, and 4 of the top 5 scorers (all seniors who "didn't produce" according to you) and their top returning scorer is Haula who put up 24 points...not exactly a team that lights it up. You talk up Budish, but he hasn't been a world beater in his time in the lineup (9 goals in 46 games doesn't put too much fear into the opposition). Patterson is equal to Dell, so that aspect is basically a push, but North Dakota is stronger in just about every other aspect of the game.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
They will. Both squads will probably start slowly, but York and Hakstol are both amazing at getting their teams to peak in the second half, and I'm sure we'll see that again next year. I won't be surprised if we meet again (schools will play in the Ice Breaker) in March or April. Hopefully we can take one from you guys to exact some revenge from '06-'08.
They will. Both squads will probably start slowly, but York and Hakstol are both amazing at getting their teams to peak in the second half, and I'm sure we'll see that again next year. I won't be surprised if we meet again (schools will play in the Ice Breaker) in March or April. Hopefully we can take one from you guys to exact some revenge from '06-'08.
SiouxFanatic
Registered User
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
I immediately thought that when reading his posts. Oh well though, just leaves room for the Sioux to surprise everyone then again not many people are predicting the Sioux to finish 8th like him so he'll probably end up being the only one surprised when the Sioux finish higher up.
I immediately thought that when reading his posts. Oh well though, just leaves room for the Sioux to surprise everyone then again not many people are predicting the Sioux to finish 8th like him so he'll probably end up being the only one surprised when the Sioux finish higher up.
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
well if I was picking with my heart i think id have minnesota higher than 5th or 6th heading into the year so there goes that theory. my guess is the only difference you would make is switching the gophers with the sioux- so i could JUST as easily say the same to you. i read your post and got the impression you simply dont like the idea of someone thinking the sioux are an average team for the first time in a while. i agree goaltending is a push. defense goes to the sioux. and I have scoring going to the gophers. i dont see what the problem is there.
and if you expect the sioux to look anywhere close to as defensively sound as last year when they were playing with 3 goal leads all night, then you my friend are the one using your heart over your head. LOL. and for the record- i make a jab on here once in a while about the sioux.. but I dont take satisfaction in them losing. outside of minnesota I support the sioux above all others. i simply dont think they will be a factor after losing like 70% of their scoring. again- the gophs lost a lot of their scorers too but its well known they didnt have ANY real scorers to begin with. if bjugstad and budish were to combine for 35g this year (even you will agree thats not far fetched) that would nearly negate all of their departing senior forwards from last year. i did botch the UM-ND series though so ill shut up now.
well if I was picking with my heart i think id have minnesota higher than 5th or 6th heading into the year so there goes that theory. my guess is the only difference you would make is switching the gophers with the sioux- so i could JUST as easily say the same to you. i read your post and got the impression you simply dont like the idea of someone thinking the sioux are an average team for the first time in a while. i agree goaltending is a push. defense goes to the sioux. and I have scoring going to the gophers. i dont see what the problem is there.
and if you expect the sioux to look anywhere close to as defensively sound as last year when they were playing with 3 goal leads all night, then you my friend are the one using your heart over your head. LOL. and for the record- i make a jab on here once in a while about the sioux.. but I dont take satisfaction in them losing. outside of minnesota I support the sioux above all others. i simply dont think they will be a factor after losing like 70% of their scoring. again- the gophs lost a lot of their scorers too but its well known they didnt have ANY real scorers to begin with. if bjugstad and budish were to combine for 35g this year (even you will agree thats not far fetched) that would nearly negate all of their departing senior forwards from last year. i did botch the UM-ND series though so ill shut up now.
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hockeyfan33
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
I feel like Dell came out of nowhere, was he a highly regarded recruit ?
I feel like Dell came out of nowhere, was he a highly regarded recruit ?
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
Agreed. There are some people who think North Dakota is going to win the WCHA next year (collegehockeysource.com...although that site is full of terrible errors. they don't even place UNO in the WCHA.) and some who think the Sioux will finish 8th and everyone will defect from the program after (jerryj). IMO, the Sioux will fight for 4th-5th along with UNO and Wisconsin. In order to compete for the top spot we would have to get either a tremendous amount of lucky breaks, or have a few players step it up ala Knight and have breakout years. I just don't see that happening, but I'm not too worried about it. The 4th place WCHA team this season won the National Championship.
Agreed. There are some people who think North Dakota is going to win the WCHA next year (collegehockeysource.com...although that site is full of terrible errors. they don't even place UNO in the WCHA.) and some who think the Sioux will finish 8th and everyone will defect from the program after (jerryj). IMO, the Sioux will fight for 4th-5th along with UNO and Wisconsin. In order to compete for the top spot we would have to get either a tremendous amount of lucky breaks, or have a few players step it up ala Knight and have breakout years. I just don't see that happening, but I'm not too worried about it. The 4th place WCHA team this season won the National Championship.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
I don't really care what people think is going to happen with the Sioux. My issue with your prediction was that it didn't make any sense. Typically, players don't leave early after having poor seasons, and yet you think that not only will North Dakota have a terrible season, but they will see a mass defection from the program. To me, that doesn't make sense at all.
I'm not sure how Minnesota has the edge over North Dakota offensively. North Dakota has the more highly regarded offensive recruits coming in, and has the better returning players. Offensively, North Dakota returns 177 points from 14 players (about 12.64 points/player). Minnesota returns 148 points from 17 players (about 8.71 points/player). Added to that, is that North Dakota has a higher regarded incoming freshman class. Obviously, that remains to be seen. Minnesota has had some very highly regarded classes that bombed at the collegiate level. As for Bjugstad and Budish putting up a combined 35 goals, it's completely doable, but considering that they've put up a combined 17 goals in 75 games in their careers, I wouldn't bank on it. FWIW, the Gopher seniors last year put up 51 goals.
Since Hakstol took over, North Dakota has consistently been a top notch Defensive squad. I definitely expect North Dakota to be very sound in our own end next year (along with almost everyone else that I've talked with, Sioux fans and non-Sioux fans).
Here are North Dakota's Team Defense stats since Hakstol took over...
2010-2011: 2.14 gpg (2nd Half: 1.71 gpg)
2009-2010: 2.12 gpg (2nd Half: 2.08 gpg)
2008-2009: 2.74 gpg (2nd Half: 2.53 gpg)
2007-2008: 1.86 gpg (2nd Half: 1.65 gpg)
2006-2007: 2.70 gpg (2nd Half: 2.36 gpg)
2005-2006: 2.37 gpg (2nd Half: 2.26 gpg)
2004-2005: 2.29 gpg (2nd Half: 2.26 gpg)
As we can see, the Sioux under Hakstol have always been a very strong defensive team, especially in the second half of the season. While last year's team was very strong defensively, it was only the third best statistically under Hakstol, and second best in the second half. That's why I'm not too concerned about a fall off defensively.
If you want to call me a homer, that's fine, I am. However, I also like to have some sort of solid argument behind what I say other than ifs and buts. I also think I'm very level headed when it comes to North Dakota hockey.
I don't really care what people think is going to happen with the Sioux. My issue with your prediction was that it didn't make any sense. Typically, players don't leave early after having poor seasons, and yet you think that not only will North Dakota have a terrible season, but they will see a mass defection from the program. To me, that doesn't make sense at all.
I'm not sure how Minnesota has the edge over North Dakota offensively. North Dakota has the more highly regarded offensive recruits coming in, and has the better returning players. Offensively, North Dakota returns 177 points from 14 players (about 12.64 points/player). Minnesota returns 148 points from 17 players (about 8.71 points/player). Added to that, is that North Dakota has a higher regarded incoming freshman class. Obviously, that remains to be seen. Minnesota has had some very highly regarded classes that bombed at the collegiate level. As for Bjugstad and Budish putting up a combined 35 goals, it's completely doable, but considering that they've put up a combined 17 goals in 75 games in their careers, I wouldn't bank on it. FWIW, the Gopher seniors last year put up 51 goals.
Since Hakstol took over, North Dakota has consistently been a top notch Defensive squad. I definitely expect North Dakota to be very sound in our own end next year (along with almost everyone else that I've talked with, Sioux fans and non-Sioux fans).
Here are North Dakota's Team Defense stats since Hakstol took over...
2010-2011: 2.14 gpg (2nd Half: 1.71 gpg)
2009-2010: 2.12 gpg (2nd Half: 2.08 gpg)
2008-2009: 2.74 gpg (2nd Half: 2.53 gpg)
2007-2008: 1.86 gpg (2nd Half: 1.65 gpg)
2006-2007: 2.70 gpg (2nd Half: 2.36 gpg)
2005-2006: 2.37 gpg (2nd Half: 2.26 gpg)
2004-2005: 2.29 gpg (2nd Half: 2.26 gpg)
As we can see, the Sioux under Hakstol have always been a very strong defensive team, especially in the second half of the season. While last year's team was very strong defensively, it was only the third best statistically under Hakstol, and second best in the second half. That's why I'm not too concerned about a fall off defensively.
If you want to call me a homer, that's fine, I am. However, I also like to have some sort of solid argument behind what I say other than ifs and buts. I also think I'm very level headed when it comes to North Dakota hockey.
Fighting Sioux 23
New member
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
He was considered a solid recruit, but was lost a bit because Eidsness was a two-time All-WCHA Goalie coming into this year and Dell had only played in a handful of games prior to this season.
He was considered a solid recruit, but was lost a bit because Eidsness was a two-time All-WCHA Goalie coming into this year and Dell had only played in a handful of games prior to this season.
Happy
Registered User
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
it may not be a bad choice, because if a player transfers, to say a bottom half CCHA team, etc, and has to sit out a whole year, he may be better off getting a whole lot of games and ice time as opposed to losing a whole year of hockey. It sure does seem that kids are not satisfied, except for goalies, to wait a year or two for ice time to open up at some schools. it must make recruiting a depth type player ( for the first 2 years or so) very frustrating, to say the least. If they play too good, like Stu Bickel, they leave for a pro contract, if they don't play good enough, like Minnesota's 2 players, they leave for more ice time elsewhere. The over all goal of getting a pro contract has certainly replaced the goal of a diploma. it may well turn out to start to hurt UND more than it has in the resent past, you have been pretty lucky over the last ten years or so.
it may not be a bad choice, because if a player transfers, to say a bottom half CCHA team, etc, and has to sit out a whole year, he may be better off getting a whole lot of games and ice time as opposed to losing a whole year of hockey. It sure does seem that kids are not satisfied, except for goalies, to wait a year or two for ice time to open up at some schools. it must make recruiting a depth type player ( for the first 2 years or so) very frustrating, to say the least. If they play too good, like Stu Bickel, they leave for a pro contract, if they don't play good enough, like Minnesota's 2 players, they leave for more ice time elsewhere. The over all goal of getting a pro contract has certainly replaced the goal of a diploma. it may well turn out to start to hurt UND more than it has in the resent past, you have been pretty lucky over the last ten years or so.
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
fighting sioux- that is fair enough.
my only problem with banking on last years stats for this years production is that in a case with the sioux- guys like knight and nelson are going to be relied on as the guys this year when last year there was no pressure and they were playing teams that had already been pounded into oblivion by malone, frattin and the likes. meanwhile some other teams, particularly young teams last year (denver, UNO, UM), you would expect those young players to take a step forward from their 1st to their 2nd year. when the sioux dont have a lot of 2nd year players- you are already getting what you are likely getting from your upperclassmen, and your freshmen may take time to grow accustomed to the wcha..
maybe the sioux will finish 3rd or 4th. you certainly have the coach to do it. I think you have the best coach (and coaching staff) in college hockey. im excited to see how the sioux look this year.. if lucia and company had your roster id expect a poor year. lets see what hakstol can do. ill be surprised if he does much better than 8th.
fighting sioux- that is fair enough.
my only problem with banking on last years stats for this years production is that in a case with the sioux- guys like knight and nelson are going to be relied on as the guys this year when last year there was no pressure and they were playing teams that had already been pounded into oblivion by malone, frattin and the likes. meanwhile some other teams, particularly young teams last year (denver, UNO, UM), you would expect those young players to take a step forward from their 1st to their 2nd year. when the sioux dont have a lot of 2nd year players- you are already getting what you are likely getting from your upperclassmen, and your freshmen may take time to grow accustomed to the wcha..
maybe the sioux will finish 3rd or 4th. you certainly have the coach to do it. I think you have the best coach (and coaching staff) in college hockey. im excited to see how the sioux look this year.. if lucia and company had your roster id expect a poor year. lets see what hakstol can do. ill be surprised if he does much better than 8th.
SoCalSiouxFan
Registered User
Re: University of North Dakota Hockey: 2011-2012
Not luck. At UND the coaches and alumni help players make intelligent informed decisions.
At UND it's not whether or not they will get a pro contract, it is assumed they (Matt Frattin for example) will. Its not that first pro contract they should be too concerned with it is the second contract, that long term multi-million dollar contract which sets them up for life. Thay don't just want to sign a contract, most players that are drafted will be offered a contract, they want to succeed at the next level.
Seems easier for forwards with raw talent to leave early, but the NHL expects a lot more out of defensemen and goaltenders than raw talent. Players like Nick Leddy shouldn't be leaving early. Not good for their career when sports columnists report that a players is not NHL ready, see Chicago Tribune article below:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ick-leddy-defensemen-duncan-keith-stan-bowman
In 46 games Leddy was often paired up with Chicago's top defensemen but had only 7 points and was a -3 for the season. Not the kind of performance one would expect out of a 1st round pick and a Minnesota Mr. Hockey winner.
Not luck. At UND the coaches and alumni help players make intelligent informed decisions.
At UND it's not whether or not they will get a pro contract, it is assumed they (Matt Frattin for example) will. Its not that first pro contract they should be too concerned with it is the second contract, that long term multi-million dollar contract which sets them up for life. Thay don't just want to sign a contract, most players that are drafted will be offered a contract, they want to succeed at the next level.
Seems easier for forwards with raw talent to leave early, but the NHL expects a lot more out of defensemen and goaltenders than raw talent. Players like Nick Leddy shouldn't be leaving early. Not good for their career when sports columnists report that a players is not NHL ready, see Chicago Tribune article below:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...ick-leddy-defensemen-duncan-keith-stan-bowman
In 46 games Leddy was often paired up with Chicago's top defensemen but had only 7 points and was a -3 for the season. Not the kind of performance one would expect out of a 1st round pick and a Minnesota Mr. Hockey winner.