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Union

Re: Union

You would think logically it's being well involved as an asst women's coach, then moving to a head coach. Maybe DIII to DI?

Is the issue the route to take or how and who picks the next coach? Key attributes, organization, passion in the game and maybe in the women's game specifically, and want/willingness to really work at it. Biggest issue I see in coaching failures at any sport and level are not setting your players up to succeed. You run your system regardless of the players skill at that system. Coach unwilling to change their system to the players they have.

I would be willing to bet that you can change some top level team with a different coach. Run a forced system that does not match their skills and find you are not winning.


I'm willing to bet that the top end coaches find and choose players who fit into their system, not just pick a bunch of players and then try to run a system. If a coach wants a team of fast skaters, they'll look for fast players. If a coach likes big and physical, but maybe a bit on the slower side, that's who he/she will look to have on their team. I think the coaches that are not successful are the ones who don't understand what they are looking for and/or don't know how to differentiate that particular skill among the players.
 
Re: Union

I'm willing to bet that the top end coaches find and choose players who fit into their system, not just pick a bunch of players and then try to run a system. If a coach wants a team of fast skaters, they'll look for fast players. If a coach likes big and physical, but maybe a bit on the slower side, that's who he/she will look to have on their team. I think the coaches that are not successful are the ones who don't understand what they are looking for and/or don't know how to differentiate that particular skill among the players.

Ya, you can't have a run & gun approach if you don't have the team speed to go with that "system" of play. Similarly, if you can't keep up with the team speed of the majority of your opponents then you need to recruit faster skaters, obviously. Practicing your defensive zone coverage 85% of the time in games isn't going to get you many wins in a season. Being outshot by a 2 to 1 margin most of the time tells you your team just can't keep up with the other teams. I can't imagine any coach at that level not recognizing what their team's deficit areas are when it comes to the overall skill level of his/her players individually and all together as a team.
 
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Re: Union

I'm willing to bet that the top end coaches find and choose players who fit into their system, not just pick a bunch of players and then try to run a system. If a coach wants a team of fast skaters, they'll look for fast players. If a coach likes big and physical, but maybe a bit on the slower side, that's who he/she will look to have on their team. I think the coaches that are not successful are the ones who don't understand what they are looking for and/or don't know how to differentiate that particular skill among the players.

Agree. Two examples come to mind. Bill Cleary ran a system at Harvard that focused on speed and skill at the expense of size. Lot of great players came through and came out better players as a result. Mike Schaefer at Cornell recently admitted that his system of physical, defensive play is fast becoming outdated and that he needs to recruit a different kind of player - one who is smaller and faster. Whether he can make the adjustment remains to be seen.

Katey Stone runs a system that depends on speed and skill but has had recruiting issues the past few seasons that has resulted in a train wreck of a season so far. There are a variety of reasons why a program succeeds or fails. Claudia obviously had problems at Union and for whatever reason, could not recruit top end talent to make the program a winner. We'll see about her successor.
 
Re: Union

Agree. Two examples come to mind. Bill Cleary ran a system at Harvard that focused on speed and skill at the expense of size. Lot of great players came through and came out better players as a result. Mike Schaefer at Cornell recently admitted that his system of physical, defensive play is fast becoming outdated and that he needs to recruit a different kind of player - one who is smaller and faster. Whether he can make the adjustment remains to be seen.

Katey Stone runs a system that depends on speed and skill but has had recruiting issues the past few seasons that has resulted in a train wreck of a season so far. There are a variety of reasons why a program succeeds or fails. Claudia obviously had problems at Union and for whatever reason, could not recruit top end talent to make the program a winner. We'll see about her successor.

Aren't all coaches looking for speed and skill?

I think its some of the other things you have to look for, how aggressive they are, how well do they move into a position.

You simply can not win playing a defensive style though many coaches still do. Look at the game at any level for that. You still of course need a good defense and its all not offense. Again I think its how the player fits the system. You want D that pinch down hard, aggressive, or prefer they float on top to get shots on net more. Do you put more responsibility on the D or F to move the puck out of the zone, etc etc

And I think if you are being out shot 2-1 on a regular basis ore worse it has to do a lot more with system than speed
 
Aren't all coaches looking for speed and skill?

I think its some of the other things you have to look for, how aggressive they are, how well do they move into a position.

You simply can not win playing a defensive style though many coaches still do. Look at the game at any level for that. You still of course need a good defense and its all not offense. Again I think its how the player fits the system. You want D that pinch down hard, aggressive, or prefer they float on top to get shots on net more. Do you put more responsibility on the D or F to move the puck out of the zone, etc etc

And I think if you are being out shot 2-1 on a regular basis ore worse it has to do a lot more with system than speed

When your opponents win the majority of the foot races to loose pucks in all 3 zones and are constantly swarming you everywhere on the ice with and without the puck because they are simply faster, all of that results in at least a 2 to 1 ratio in shots on goal, and when that is the situation on your team, systems are the very least of your worries. Have you actually been around the game much at all?!
 
Re: Union

When your opponents win the majority of the foot races to loose pucks in all 3 zones and are constantly swarming you everywhere on the ice with and without the puck because they are simply faster, all of that results in at least a 2 to 1 ratio in shots on goal, and when that is the situation on your team, systems are the very least of your worries. Have you actually been around the game much at all?!

Been there a lot and if your system is to play man to man D ALWAYS it is easy to get shots on goal and in goal. Don't need to be super fast to gain the slightest inch when playing man to man. Pay more attention

Seems no matter who you respond to all you have are cutting remarks. Shows signs of poor intelligence.
 
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Been there a lot and if your system is to play man to man D ALWAYS it is easy to get shots on goal and in goal. Don't need to be super fast to gain the slightest inch when playing man to man. Pay more attention

Seems no matter who you respond to all you have are cutting remarks. Shows signs of poor intelligence.

Lol, you're too easy. And who uses man to man coverage anymore?! Where have you been man?! Besides, you can't even attempt man to man coverage when your team is SLOWER THAN THE OTHER TEAM. Even the dumbest coaches are smart enough to know that. What a terrible example. Speed and skill, speed and skill. Repeat that phrase over and over and you'll soon catch up. If you don't have the speed to keep up with your opponent your systems will fail because you're always 2 steps behind at least, so all you're doing is chasing them around the rink. It's that simple.
 
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Re: Union

Lol, you're too easy. And who uses man to man coverage anymore?! Where have you been man?! Besides, you can't even attempt man to man coverage when your team is SLOWER THAN THE OTHER TEAM. Even the dumbest coaches are smart enough to know that. What a terrible example. Speed and skill, speed and skill. Repeat that phrase over and over and you'll soon catch up. If you don't have the speed to keep up with your opponent your systems will fail because you're always 2 steps behind at least, so all you're doing is chasing them around the rink. It's that simple.

If you paid attention to games you would see that some teams still do play man to man. Everyone looks for speed and skill. Right some coaches look for slow and blind.
 
Re: Union

Aren't all coaches looking for speed and skill?

I think its some of the other things you have to look for, how aggressive they are, how well do they move into a position.

You simply can not win playing a defensive style though many coaches still do. Look at the game at any level for that. You still of course need a good defense and its all not offense. Again I think its how the player fits the system. You want D that pinch down hard, aggressive, or prefer they float on top to get shots on net more. Do you put more responsibility on the D or F to move the puck out of the zone, etc etc

And I think if you are being out shot 2-1 on a regular basis ore worse it has to do a lot more with system than speed

Not necessarily. Again, it depends on the system and philosophy. As I pointed out, Mike Schaefer has traditionally run a defense first system that relied on physicality and punishing the opponents best players. He didn't pay much attention to either speed or skill. Jeff Kampersaal at Princeton has run a system that relies on defense and positioning. Not that he is sacrificing speed or skill but he's not looking to create on ice track meets. That has changed somewhat as he has been able to recruit higher end talent.

Harvard has been regularly outshot this year by wide margins yet we run the same system that enabled us to dominate opponents in previous seasons. The problem for us is recruiting top end talent - we've struck out the last few years and it is showing up this season.
 
If you paid attention to games you would see that some teams still do play man to man. Everyone looks for speed and skill. Right some coaches look for slow and blind.

Maybe it just looks like they're playing man to man because they're scrambling so much just trying to keep up. I watch a lot of hockey and I haven't seen a team using man to man coverage in eons, but I obviously can't see every game. I would be interested to know what teams are using man to man coverage and I welcome being corrected on that point. I love your last sentence! Lol. You seem to be a good sport. No more teasing from me. You've earned it.
 
Re: Union

Maybe it just looks like they're playing man to man because they're scrambling so much just trying to keep up. I watch a lot of hockey and I haven't seen a team using man to man coverage in eons, but I obviously can't see every game. I would be interested to know what teams are using man to man coverage and I welcome being corrected on that point. I love your last sentence! Lol. You seem to be a good sport. No more teasing from me. You've earned it.
I think Jenny Potter ran a man to man at Ohio State last year. Can any of you WCHA folks confirm this?
 
Re: Union

Nice Win Today!!!!

We've officially hit rock bottom. No other way to look at it. Worst team in Harvard hockey history. Maybe worse than the first year we started the program in 1979. I'm not kidding. At least we had the excuse then of being the new kid on the block. This is an unmitigated disaster.
 
Re: Union

Jeff Kampersaal at Princeton has run a system that relies on defense and positioning. Not that he is sacrificing speed or skill but he's not looking to create on ice track meets. That has changed somewhat as he has been able to recruit higher end talent.

Harvard has been regularly outshot this year by wide margins yet we run the same system that enabled us to dominate opponents in previous seasons. The problem for us is recruiting top end talent - we've struck out the last few years and it is showing up this season.

Your excuse for Harvard's increasingly lacklustre performance in recent years, and abysmal performance this year -- ie. "lack of talent" relative to better performing teams--is certainly not supported by ANY objective facts.

Since the time the current year's senior class arrived on campus, Harvard's roster has been graced with 12 players who were selected for Canadian or US National U18 and/or U22 teams. That's more than half the roster!! While I would certainly not suggest that being selected to a National team necessarily makes someone MORE talented than many who are passed over, it would be ridiculous to suggest any of these players are not top end talent. Further, the majority of remaining Harvard players have very unusually strong hockey resumes which generally include attendance at NDC camps, league all star honours, titles with top teams, National Championship appearances, scoring titles, family NHL pedigrees, et al.

Compare that to other ECAC programs, none of which have nearly the same depth of national team experience, nor breadth of other hockey achievements all the way down the roster:

Nationally #3 ranked Clarkson has only half as many (6) players with National USA or Canada U18 experience (plus 1 player on the Czech National team). In addition, historically, Clarkson teams have often been widely seen as relatively slow by D1 standards, though they have typically seemed to have been able to overcome this in the win column regardless. Most of their players in many seasons would have been deemed far too slow to be of any interest to Harvard. (In fact, a great many relatively slowish players for a variety of teams over the years have notched much higher stats than anyone on Harvard's current roster, but I digress....)

Nationally #5 ranked SLU has only 2 players with National team experience. Furthermore, SLU has only 3 seniors and 8 freshman, meaning they are overall a very inexperienced team in terms of D1 level play. Perhaps even more notably, a large number of players on the roster have no real "blue chip" hockey achievements noted in their bios, unlike virtually every player on Harvard's roster. This relative lack of "blue chip" talent is not a new phenomenon for SLU. Their "lack of talent" and very young roster have been no barrier to top end performance, either this year or in years past, where their performance has also been consistently good. I think of SLU as typically having great "lunch bucket" teams, not flashy or particularly speedy but with exceptional work ethic and great teamwork rather than exceptional individual skill.

Taking a look at top-rated Ivy competitor Princeton, now #9, which you seem to believe has been more successful at securing high end talent relative to Harvard. However, they have 4 players on their roster (only 1/3 as many as Harvard recruited in the same period!) who had National U18 team experience coming in. There are actually a great many players on Princeton's roster who had zero interest from Harvard.

In actual fact, Harvard has always been far more blessed talent-wise relative to the majority of it's ECAC competition (perhaps with the one exception of Cornell in a few of its greatest glory years). Harvard's top academic reputation automatically makes it a highly favoured destination. Its significantly more flexible admission policies relative to its Ivy competitors, especially vs Princeton and Yale, are also well-known factors that make it that much more appealing to recruits, and provide it with access to a significantly larger player pool to draw from. Historically strong performance on-ice, albeit now changing, has made it a further big draw. While there are certainly a few other reasons for Harvard to have growing difficulties in recruiting moving forward, that has not yet been a factor in poor team performance.

A look at the RPI rankings indicates that only Union and RIT currently rank lower than Harvard among D1 programs this season. Probably not coincidently, both are non-Ivy non-scholarship schools which, unlike Harvard, result in very difficult recruiting challenges for their coaches. There is no comparison whatsoever to the skill level of players rostered by these 2 schools relative to Harvard. Player for player, it is truly like night and day difference.

At some point, one has to stop laying the blame on the players' lack of hockey skills for Harvard's woes and begin to look elsewhere for the real answers. As the above data and their bios show, Harvard's rostered players were incredibly talented and high-achieving on ice the day they stepped on campus, both in absolute and relative terms. In the vast majority of cases, they were heavily pursued by several other D1 hockey programs. It's not possible that suddenly those skills, displayed in other hockey environments, just disappeared. If it's not talent, what else could it be? For many seasons, a significant number of players actually seem to have gone backwards in offensive numbers during their Harvard careers (other than those who saw little ice time early on of course). What could possibly account for that?

Conversely, in numerous cases, many relatively unheralded incoming players have made a big impact on other teams. Just a lot of late bloomers? Diamonds in the rough spotted through unusually clever recruiting off the beaten path? These strong performances may also be a mark of good development, high motivation and growing confidence, strong team chemistry, adjusting coaching strategy to team and individual strengths, etc.--all important attributes related to effective coaching which creates a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

A great many experienced observers for many years, have judged Desrosiers and Wells the best coaches in the ECAC, and I would agree. I don't think it's any accident then that their teams are ranked where they are in the country, despite the fact they are not necessarily blessed with the most talent, nor the most highly desirable educational venue either to be attracting "the best of the best".

Are you just looking for an easy scapegoat or do you really want to find the truth? To discover the reasons for Harvard's growing malaise I might suggest you would need to dig much deeper. Make sure you leave no stone unturned.
 
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Re: Union

At the beginning of the season some were suggesting that Union would go the whole season without winning a game. While I, the ever Union optimist, thought that this was unlikely, I certainly didn't look at Harvard as a game to put in the win column. That said the one issue that Union has always had in the past is that players did not get better as the season progressed. That is clearly not the case with this team and this coaching staff. This team is better than it was three months ago. If you watched the game on Saturday you saw signs of this. When those young forwards were attacking the Harvard Defenders and creating turnovers, when we can make a simple breakout pass to avoid getting pinned in our own zone for significant lengths of time, and look at special teams (Both are respectable). If you look at the make up of this team (16 skaters including 8 freshman and 3 freshman goalies) and the fact that there are an additional 11 freshman committed for next year you have to see the brighter days ahead for this program. I know its early, but we just beat Harvard!!! How can you not be excited about that. :)
 
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