UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

How ironic that our coaches are not doing a good job teaching defensemen, when even after the two poor performances this past weekend, the team is still 10th overall in team D at 2.41 GAPG, vs tied for 21st (with Niagara) in team O at 3.12 GPG. UNH now 2nd in PK for all of Div 1 at 92.0%. Yup, need to "rein in" our D men, who are making way too many mistakes.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

How ironic that our coaches are not doing a good job teaching defensemen, when even after the two poor performances this past weekend, the team is still 10th overall in team D at 2.41 GAPG, vs tied for 21st (with Niagara) in team O at 3.12 GPG. UNH now 2nd in PK for all of Div 1 at 92.0%. Yup, need to "rein in" our D men, who are making way too many mistakes.

lol good post sir! Stats tell the truth. Problem likes where those mistakes happen and how they ultimately can affect an outcome! But we are so much better off this season and it's really something we should be extremely grateful for. They work hard out there.

On another note, Chuck, thought for sure your reeling DRW would beat my Bruins last night! Went to bed early for a change and missed the OT...

 

[Snively65]

On another note, Chuck, thought for sure your reeling DRW would beat my Bruins last night! Went to bed early for a change and missed the OT...

Missed the best part by skipping the Ovahtime. I know, a lot of folks here hate the Ovahtime. B's just toying with the Dead Wings? But, I like watching HE alums on any NHL teams.

 

[Dan]

The argument that Gildon is making these mistakes and not getting coached is dumb and unfounded. Absolutely and unequivocally (I'm not even sure if this was the original point - or if It called out the coaches for the team's approach to last weekend, but some have sure run with it). Of course they are discussing his turnovers with him - and like good coaches they are working with him to improve while also encouraging him to keep doing everything he's been doing...

First of all, the issue is physical it's not something that can simply be told to him. His handle needs work under pressure - but it's also the load he carries and what's asked of him that puts him in a position to make mistakes. If they wanted him to play like Chanter he could and would and you'd never see a mistake - although then people would whine about him not using his skill set...

Chuck, if you're going to consider yourself any kind of coach you should know that you can't prevent physical mistakes. You can work on them. But you don't reign Gildon in and you don't tell him to go out there and not turn the puck over - then you'll have a D focused (Does focused work for you? I know you knew exactly what I meant by 'nervous' and just saw a chance to be condescending) on only one thing - not turning it over, thus making no plays and probably turning it over more...

Do you get mad at your soccer backs when they miss-hit a clearing attempt and tell them that whatever they do they better not miss-hit clearing attempts? Or do you work with them on their skills in the next practice knowing the work will make them better? If they miss-hit one in the very next game do you think it would be fair for parents to assume you never addressed it? If they're not perfect is it anyone's fault? Or is it life? If they're you're best player and clear 95 out of 100 chances precisely but make five miss-hits of varying degrees do you bench them for a lesser player? Maybe you might - some unathletic, short kid who's legs move fast - but few good coaches would even consider it...

This isn't complicated - you let him do what he does and you work on getting him even better and more efficient at what he does. You don't coach the talent out of him or tell him to be a guy because his GUY mistakes bother you. You don't punish him for messing up twice in half a season trying to making plays you're asking him to make. You can argue this semantically if you wish, but this is how they are handling Gildon and how they should. No one but you thinks Gildon can't handle coaching or he's not being coached - that's another argument you invented, Chuck.

If they had a senior Gildon on the roster to put the load on while he learned they would. They don't. So you wheel with the frosh who brung you. He is being coached and he's being coached CORRECTLY.

You don't coach to prevent physical mistakes. You coach up skills - sometimes learning what skills need improvement based on mistakes made - and mental approach. Then mistakes get fewer and further between. But the physical will still happen. I mean, if Lidstrom fell down skating from behind his net and turned one over do you think he needed Scotty Bowman to rip him a new one?

"Dammit Lidstrom don't fall over out there! Why don't you know falling is bad?! From now on let your partner carry the puck because you fell once and that hurts the team!"

And enough with generational BS - the previous generation hated the current older generations' lazy asses too. You all were supposed to be the end of the world and yet here we are still chugging along today. Generations don't change, one dies and the next one takes their place yelling at clouds and hating on younger people...

 

[Dan]

How ironic that our coaches are not doing a good job teaching defensemen, when even after the two poor performances this past weekend, the team is still 10th overall in team D at 2.41 GAPG, vs tied for 21st (with Niagara) in team O at 3.12 GPG. UNH now 2nd in PK for all of Div 1 at 92.0%. Yup, need to "rein in" our D men, who are making way too many mistakes.

Gildon is the SS who makes a few more errors than average but gets to about 5 balls a game that most SS wouldn't dream of reaching and turns them into outs. Unless you're blinded by the idea that a star should be perfect you'd take that SS over the rest ANYTIME...

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

Against Army a puck just fluttered right past Marks and off his stick to an opponent in front. No ones talking about that goal because no one has real expectations for Marks. So he gets a pass, while Gildon is under the microscope. I bet the coaches probably came down on him nicely though, since as a SR he is unable to 'pull a Foegel'!!!

This whole argument is so stupid - I get Greg's point that's Gildon can be better. He can be. But others arguing he's hurting the team or not being coached at all....

They don't have to worry about me being a 'tenacious dude' on this one. Those arguments aren't worth further consideration...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Gildon is the SS who makes a few more errors than average but gets to about 5 balls a game that most SS wouldn't dream of reaching and turns them into outs. Unless you're blinded by the idea that a star should be perfect you'd take that SS over the rest ANYTIME...

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

Against Army a puck just fluttered right past Marks and off his stick to an opponent in front. No ones talking about that goal because no one has real expectations for Marks. So he gets a pass, while Gildon is under the microscope. I bet the coaches probably came down on him nicely though, since as a SR he is unable to 'pull a Foegel'!!!

This whole argument is so stupid - I get Greg's point that's Gildon can be better. He can be. But others arguing he's hurting the team or not being coached at all....

They don't have to worry about me being a 'tenacious dude' on this one. Those arguments aren't worth further consideration...

I believe I was one (maybe the only one) who made a comment that Cefalu should play. When you're talking about the 4th line it's probably a moot point anyway; does it really matter who's there? That's subjective I suppose. But I still feel that way, Fregona too. Just an opinion. Regardless of who plays I would hope and expect they would perform to the best of their abilities. Anyway, onto the Gildon types...

The better players ALWAYS take the heat over the others; that's the way it is. It's unfortunate, because there's the expectation that they are expected to perform at a certain caliber night in, night out. When they don't it's a huge disappointment and it's too bad, because everyone on this board knows we are so much better with Max than without. Other players do get a 'pass' because you just don't expect big things from them. And btw I don't care how he got here and it bugs me that's brought up but whatever. He's here and we are a better team than because of it.

I don't think he's above fan reproach, however. No player ever is sadly. We fans sit in the stands and with a varying degree of 'knowledge' think our thoughts about said player. Been that way since organized sport became a reality. At the same time maybe it's possible to understand that:

*Gildon is just barely over 18.
*Despite his background he's still has the adjustment to NCAA hockey (which I think he's done very well to date) Benton Maas too; they've both done a great job to date given their age and previous experiences. I do recognize how we got these two players and I shudder to think how we'd be doing right now without them.
*He's going to make mistakes, and sometimes they might be costly. Some of them have been costly. They all make mistakes. All of 'em.
*We are better off, far better off, with him. Oh snap, I think I've already mentioned that.
*We'll bemoan the fact when he leaves.

BTW, did Pesce, TvR, Hardowa or any other excellent Dman we've had in the past go under this same microscope? I would think they did. I think it comes with the territory.

One final point; who said he's prob not getting coached about his play? They watch film on Mondays. Prob pretty obvious.

 

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Gildon is the SS who makes a few more errors than average but gets to about 5 balls a game that most SS wouldn't dream of reaching and turns them into outs. Unless you're blinded by the idea that a star should be perfect you'd take that SS over the rest ANYTIME...

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

Against Army a puck just fluttered right past Marks and off his stick to an opponent in front. No ones talking about that goal because no one has real expectations for Marks. So he gets a pass, while Gildon is under the microscope. I bet the coaches probably came down on him nicely though, since as a SR he is unable to 'pull a Foegel'!!!

This whole argument is so stupid - I get Greg's point that's Gildon can be better. He can be. But others arguing he's hurting the team or not being coached at all....

They don't have to worry about me being a 'tenacious dude' on this one. Those arguments aren't worth further consideration...

Dan, I wasn't at the Army game but, if I was, I am sure that I would have made some snide remark about Marks' play. God knows I have in the past (Kevin Kapstad anyone?) and been called out for it. But most people focus on Gildon because he is a better talent than Marks et al. In a perverse way, Gildon's early season goal scoring, including the hat trick, is working against him since people are reflexively assuming that he is more of a finished product than he is. I would plead guilty to that, although I'll defend my assertion that some of his giveaways are just not acceptable. You describe them as physical but I would contend that at least a couple were mental.

 

[Felger]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

So glad you mentioned this, Dan. When the question was asked last week why Cefalu and Fregona weren't in the lineup I so wanted to answer with the obvious - its Division One college hockey not Division Three - but felt it a bit too glib. Especially since there had been a bit too much (choose one) negativity, objectivity, reality on the thread at the time.

Since its all about numbers I will point out that those two have combined for a dozen points (80% of Gildon's production, which has come in a career barely two months old) in a combined 87 games spread out over three seasons.

And I would point out that I am far from a Gildon sycophant. But enough is enough.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

BTW, did Pesce, TvR, Hardowa or any other excellent Dman we've had in the past go under this same microscope? I would think they did. I think it comes with the territory.

No they didn't, because 17/18 year old freshman Brett Pesce was the sixth defenseman (TVR, Knodel, Hardowa, Agosta, Kostolansky) and TVR was a 20 year old freshman who played alongside Kipp, Knodel, Kostolansky and was never supposed to be a star (now his brother, who arrived as a star...). Hardowa was never considered to be in this category. None entered with the same level of expectation - only Pesce was close. Gildon is the first freshman defenseman asked to be the #1 defenseman since Garrett Stafford in 1999-00. And despite Stafford playing 38 games that season, Gildon has already outscored him 15 points to 12...

The last individual defenseman I remember getting grilled like this was Craig Switzer...

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Dan, I wasn't at the Army game but, if I was, I am sure that I would have made some snide remark about Marks' play. God knows I have in the past (Kevin Kapstad anyone?) and been called out for it. But most people focus on Gildon because he is a better talent than Marks et al. In a perverse way, Gildon's early season goal scoring, including the hat trick, is working against him since people are reflexively assuming that he is more of a finished product than he is. I would plead guilty to that, although I'll defend my assertion that some of his giveaways are just not acceptable. You describe them as physical but I would contend that at least a couple were mental.

This was actually Merrimack goal number 3 - the puck was won out of the corner by MC and trickled right between, and off the sticks of, Blackburn and Marks. Neither one moved their feet to better reach the puck or take the man...

 

[HockeyRef]

No they didn't, because 17/18 year old freshman Brett Pesce was the sixth defenseman (TVR, Knodel, Hardowa, Agosta, Kostolansky) and TVR was a 20 year old freshman who played alongside Kipp, Knodel, Kostolansky and was never supposed to be a star (now his brother, who arrived as a star...). Hardowa was never considered to be in this category. None entered with the same level of expectation - only Pesce was close. Gildon is the first freshman defenseman asked to be the #1 defenseman since Garrett Stafford in 1999-00. And despite Stafford playing 38 games that season, Gildon has already outscored him 15 points to 12...

The last individual defenseman I remember getting grilled like this was Craig Switzer...

Thanks for the insight these were players before my time so to speak.

 

[HockeyRef]

Gildon is the SS who makes a few more errors than average but gets to about 5 balls a game that most SS wouldn't dream of reaching and turns them into outs. Unless you're blinded by the idea that a star should be perfect you'd take that SS over the rest ANYTIME...

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

Against Army a puck just fluttered right past Marks and off his stick to an opponent in front. No ones talking about that goal because no one has real expectations for Marks. So he gets a pass, while Gildon is under the microscope. I bet the coaches probably came down on him nicely though, since as a SR he is unable to 'pull a Foegel'!!!

This whole argument is so stupid - I get Greg's point that's Gildon can be better. He can be. But others arguing he's hurting the team or not being coached at all....

They don't have to worry about me being a 'tenacious dude' on this one. Those arguments aren't worth further consideration...

As far as the Cefalu thing who said he would help the team play better? I just felt he is a better choice than another who is getting the play time...I guess it really doesn't matter.

 

[HockeyRef]

Missed the best part by skipping the Ovahtime. I know, a lot of folks here hate the Ovahtime. B's just toying with the Dead Wings? But, I like watching HE alums on any NHL teams.

Normally I would've watched but have been under the weather the past couple of days and needed the sleep. Plus being the head of the Frankie Cefalu fan club has been exhausting!

 

[HockeyRef]

Dan, I wasn't at the Army game but, if I was, I am sure that I would have made some snide remark about Marks' play. God knows I have in the past (Kevin Kapstad anyone?) and been called out for it. But most people focus on Gildon because he is a better talent than Marks et al. In a perverse way, Gildon's early season goal scoring, including the hat trick, is working against him since people are reflexively assuming that he is more of a finished product than he is. I would plead guilty to that, although I'll defend my assertion that some of his giveaways are just not acceptable. You describe them as physical but I would contend that at least a couple were mental.

Good objective point Greg; goes back to what I said about the expectations placed on the higher skilled player ...It's hard to keep up that performance even when you are a seasoned player let alone a rookie.

We have had our share of defensive woes in the most recent past Gildon (and Maas) are a refreshing addition. I am not discrediting the rest of our D when I say this as I believe a rising tide raises all ships! Our PK speaks to the improvement...

 

[Snively65]

Gildon is the SS who makes a few more errors than average but gets to about 5 balls a game that most SS wouldn't dream of reaching and turns them into outs. Unless you're blinded by the idea that a star should be perfect you'd take that SS over the rest ANYTIME...

It's more of the same in regards to fans bashing the top talent for not being perfect every night and falling in love with the players they expect to do nothing showing flashes.

Just in this board in the last couple of weeks we see Gildon getting crushed for hurting the team while others opine that more Cefalu will help the team play better (because he hustled that one time). Gildon is the key to us winning as often as we have - more so than any other player. Cefalu is an interchangeable part. I hate this fan phenomenon with an absolute passion...

Against Army a puck just fluttered right past Marks and off his stick to an opponent in front. No ones talking about that goal because no one has real expectations for Marks. So he gets a pass, while Gildon is under the microscope. I bet the coaches probably came down on him nicely though, since as a SR he is unable to 'pull a Foegel'!!!

This whole argument is so stupid - I get Greg's point that's Gildon can be better. He can be. But others arguing he's hurting the team or not being coached at all....

They don't have to worry about me being a 'tenacious dude' on this one. Those arguments aren't worth further consideration...

You do know that I was trying to be sarcastic, right, Dan? I do not know how to insert the sarcasm emoticon with my eye-phone.

 

[Dan]

You do know that I was trying to be sarcastic, right, Dan? I do not know how to insert the sarcasm emoticon with my eye-phone.

Yup. That was me agreeing...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

For those keeping score out there, I think this is a basic recap of the last few days on the UNH thread ...

* After nice wins against Providence and RPI, the 'Cats gack up two hairballs against Army and Merrimack
* Several folks post their thoughts as to which player(s) didn't measure up in these lamentable losses
* Towards the end, I chime in and suggest maybe the coaches' roles in these losses were being overlooked
* Greg postulates that maybe the coaches aren't to blame when Gildon makes critical giveaways
* I point out Gildon has been a godsend (HR faints), and agree with Greg that Gildon has lapses in judgment
* I ponder how Gildon has repeated the same critical mistakes, raising a question of coaching vs. coachability

* Dan swoops in, somehow manages to defend both the coaching and coachability sides of my point, cautions against making the poor lad <s>"nervous"</s> "focused", questions my intelligence, my sanity, my coaching ability in my own sport, my cranky old man tendencies, and also manages to take a shot at the Cefalu-phile tendencies of HR, cross-checks Greg and a few others, and steamrolls over Snively65, who from the best I can tell seems to be invoking good natured sarcasm in support of Dan's rant.

* I wonder just how my (somewhat muted) criticism of the coaching staff for their team's no-shows this past weekend somehow morphed into being the leader of the "Gildon Is A Stiff" grassroots movement

Dan, my sincerest condolences to you for the passing of your pet cat/dog/goldfish/alpaca, or whatever it was that crawled up your asterisk and died this week. It's the holiday season, my goodness. Save it for the second half of the season. After this past weekend, I'm getting this increasingly sinking feeling we're gonna need it.

 

[scoreboard]

For those keeping score out there, I think this is a basic recap of the last few days on the UNH thread ...

* After nice wins against Providence and RPI, the 'Cats gack up two hairballs against Army and Merrimack
* Several folks post their thoughts as to which player(s) didn't measure up in these lamentable losses
* Towards the end, I chime in and suggest maybe the coaches' roles in these losses were being overlooked
* Greg postulates that maybe the coaches aren't to blame when Gildon makes critical giveaways
* I point out Gildon has been a godsend (HR faints), and agree with Greg that Gildon has lapses in judgment
* I ponder how Gildon has repeated the same critical mistakes, raising a question of coaching vs. coachability

* Dan swoops in, somehow manages to defend both the coaching and coachability sides of my point, cautions against making the poor lad <s>"nervous"</s> "focused", questions my intelligence, my sanity, my coaching ability in my own sport, my cranky old man tendencies, and also manages to take a shot at the Cefalu-phile tendencies of HR, cross-checks Greg and a few others, and steamrolls over Snively65, who from the best I can tell seems to be invoking good natured sarcasm in support of Dan's rant.

* I wonder just how my (somewhat muted) criticism of the coaching staff for their team's no-shows this past weekend somehow morphed into being the leader of the "Gildon Is A Stiff" grassroots movement

Dan, my sincerest condolences to you for the passing of your pet cat/dog/goldfish/alpaca, or whatever it was that crawled up your asterisk and died this week. It's the holiday season, my goodness. Save it for the second half of the season. After this past weekend, I'm getting this increasingly sinking feeling we're gonna need it.

Good summary.

 

[Dan]

Sorry Chuck - well off base. But at least you have scoreboard all in a tizzy...

My first point in this thread was clear in saying Gildon by shouldnt be stifled, that his gifts were transparent and that experience (this can include coaching), practice (this includes coaching) and working (this includes coaching) on HIS game would get him where he needs to be. I never said a word about him being above coaching or about the staff letting him play without any advisement.

You responded to that post directly afterwards by completely misrepresenting (page one in the Chuck play book) my post as a free pass for Gildon and an argument that the coaches shouldn't say boo to the FR. You knew that was a BS take and you made it anyway because you are a disingenuous debater. You argued that Gildon was not Bobby Orr and if he made future errors he should get reamed out, have his minutes cut or be bench. You argued that other HE coaches would have already set him straight. Now you want to claim that all along you never argued he should be reigned in and coached to be safe - but just that he could be a bit better...

Give me a break. You are so transparent - I knew your initial take on the coaches was how the team came to play. But when Greg responded about Gildon, you just couldn't say so and leave it at that. You had to concoct this whole scenario where Gildon wasn't being coached and twist my post into some garbage statement about him being above coaching to try to pump your own tires? Create an argument? Just be contrarian?

On top of that you've proven once again that when you can't hang on a topic, you'll dive into semantics or nit-picking word choice. In coaching, if you harp on a kids negative play they're going to be focused on avoiding negative results. And you're not going to get the best out of them. If you touch on it, coach them up and work with them to improve you will get good results. You can joke about my initial word choice of nervous and you may consider yourself a real old school mans man - but you know that is a fundamental point of coaching and a natural human reaction by the player.

If you choose to continue to nit-pick my word choice or deny that fact rather than discuss it in good faith them I'll assume you're still being disingenuous or that yes, you are in fact a coach with a lot of learning to do (And it's not me questioning it - it's you showing it). Another place you can start is by accepting you might glean things from practices and warm-ups. That's another one of your regular jokes you think embarrasses me. But trust me, if any coaches are reading - they're laughing at you - because most are always learning (warm-up hint - especially about opponents) by paying attention in those situations...

I noticed you completely avoided my example within your sport probably because it makes a point you don't want to admit. You wouldn't ream your kids out or harp on them to not make physical mistakes would you and you know it. You'd get bad results. You'd coach them on their skills so they are more efficient at what they do best - which, again, was my point in the first post I made in the topic. The one you're now trying to make. But don't admit that make another quip about 'nervous' instead...

I listed the Cefalu point as the most recent example of a phenomenon that happens here often and in the sports world all the time. Perhaps imperfectly if that wasn't those posters intent. In sports today, everyone wants to replace the imperfect star with the role guy when the star is playing at 90% without considering that the star at 90% is still that much better. I didn't even have Ref in mind when I posted - it was not remotely directed at her and I'm sorry she was offended.

It seems to me that snively was being sarcastic towards your take that the coaches weren't working with Gildon or the defense because he disagreed with you. Not to support me. That was a bad take by you. Own it. I quoted his post because it was a good one and what I wrote was once again aimed at your baseless, dodging and ever changing take on the situation. I'm sorry if he was offended.

I'm not sure what cross-checked Greg even means. As usual, Greg makes good points backed up by solid reasoning. We seemingly found the common ground of working with Max while also allowing him continued freedom as the right way to mange him (while debating the nature of the mistakes) long before you decided that was going to be your most recent take on the subject. I'm sorry if I offended him at all.

The only thing that died this week was my patience for your constant moving of the goalposts or flip-flopping within your arguments, misrepresenting other posters, inventing opposing arguments to suit yourself or your semantic nit-picking so you can pat yourself on the back and claim some sort of victory no matter where a conversation ends up. The next time we have a genuine debate where you don't try to manipulate the discussion will be the first...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017-2018 Season - The Quest Continues

Wow Never a dull moment ....how'd you know I fainted? That's embarrassing . Dan I wasn't offended...I stoppped being offended 3 years ago!