UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

[Greg Ambrose]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

You know, when you are in it, going to these games like we did, we got so numb to the actual record. Talk about falling asleep at the wheel...drive home safely, indeed. Morning after blues.

I am so excited this morning because I have made plans to go to the BU-UML game on Saturday. So far this season I have watched probably 30-35 games in person and the only one that lived up to what college hockey can be is the BU-BC Beanpot final. We are now in March, a month where I am going to get to see teams with talent and energy which will, hopefully, reinforce what I love about the game.

And Ref, I agree with you regarding the illegal substitution penalty. I have been going to games for decades and, frankly, I have never heard that call before. It sounded like football. How many times do you see the ref go over to the bench and explain what is going on out on the ice. A good official recognizes that a hockey coach is just that, a coach, and not a rules guru and explains things that are out of the ordinary. Given all that, the penalty had no effect on the outcome of the game. UNH lost for the same reason they lost all year. Not enough talent.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

I am so excited this morning because I have made plans to go to the BU-UML game on Saturday. So far this season I have watched probably 30-35 games in person and the only one that lived up to what college hockey can be is the BU-BC Beanpot final. We are now in March, a month where I am going to get to see teams with talent and energy which will, hopefully, reinforce what I love the game.

Enjoy Greg! I have circled the upcoming games that will be played on NESN and will attend the Friday HE Semi's. Bought the tix awhile back and will enjoy the hockey, because I have grown to love the sport...now that I understand it better haha. In a perfect world one would think that coaches do know what's what, but special circumstances that come up only in rare occasions deserve to be addressed so that something like last night is avoided at all levels of sport. Works for me, and I'll remember this in my officiating because of this.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Not enough talent, AND BAD COACHING.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Not possible because the player must come out of the penalty box. So Miller is the only one who could come out after 5 mins.

Understood. But if they wait until the first stoppage after 5 minutes, could they remove Miller and substitute someone else into the box? Or move back to full strength with someone off the player's bench, and leave Miller in the box to finish up the misconduct?

Considering Miller was the least talented frosh on the 4th line, it makes complete sense for him to serve the penalty (and I'll avoid snarky comments about Quast and the Captain). They were already down the players who'd gotten heaved (Cleland and Eiserman, correct?) so having as many bodies available as possible would be more important than usual, so I can absolutely see Umile wanting to minimize the amount of guys in the box, and he could have been willing to bite the bullet on the major PK for a few extra seconds to keep what little depth/flexibility he had available to him.

I honestly don't know the protocol on the situation, but (1) I can see why Coach wouldn't want to have two players committed to the box unless absolutely necessary, and (2) it still seems like the HE crew could (should?) have sorted this out with him at the outset to prevent the "gotcha" moment at the end?

 

[Yuppie Scum]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Understood. But if they wait until the first stoppage after 5 minutes, could they remove Miller and substitute someone else into the box? Or move back to full strength with someone off the player's bench, and leave Miller in the box to finish up the misconduct?

Considering Miller was the least talented frosh on the 4th line, it makes complete sense for him to serve the penalty (and I'll avoid snarky comments about Quast and the Captain). They were already down the players who'd gotten heaved (Cleland and Eiserman, correct?) so having as many bodies available as possible would be more important than usual, so I can absolutely see Umile wanting to minimize the amount of guys in the box, and he could have been willing to bite the bullet on the major PK for a few extra seconds to keep what little depth/flexibility he had available to him.

I honestly don't know the protocol on the situation, but (1) I can see why Coach wouldn't want to have two players committed to the box unless absolutely necessary, and (2) it still seems like the HE crew could (should?) have sorted this out with him at the outset to prevent the "gotcha" moment at the end?

Do they have to remind him to pay attention to the clock and make sure to follow a pretty routine hockey procedure? Should they also tell him to make sure his shoes are tied? Should they tell him to breath every few seconds? No, it was just a boneheaded move by Umile, and by his players for putting the team in that position, especially in an elimination game. Shades of the Bengals playoff loss.

Potularski and Kelleher are pretty solid pieces, good luck to you guys rebuilding next year.

 

[Felger]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

So what you're saying is the UNH braintrust had almost five (5) minutes to realize they needed another player in the box so that Miller could come out legally in the flow of play upon expiration of the initial major, right?

Everyone had a lot more than 5 minutes to figure things out. The penalties happened with 18 seconds left in the second period. The illegal substitution happened in the third period.

A pox on several houses.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

USA Hockey Rule 404
(a) A “MISCONDUCT” penalty involves the removal of a player, other than a goalkeeper, from the game for a period of 10 minutes with immediate substitution taking place on ice. A player whose misconduct penalty has expired shall remain on the penalty bench until the next stoppage of play.
...
In the case where a player receives a major plus misconduct or game misconduct penalty, unless immediate substitution is allowed under the coincidental major penalty rule 403(c), the penalized team shall place a substitute player on the penalty bench immediately (for Youth, Girls’ and High School Classifications) or before the penalty expires (for Adult Classifications). No other replacement for the penalized player shall be permitted to enter the game except from the penalty bench upon expiration of the penalty.

For violation of this rule a bench minor penalty for illegal substitution shall be imposed.

Hey Watcher, I have an honest question here. Having trouble finding this in the NCAA rulebook:
http://pointstreaksites.com/files/uploaded_documents/2439/2014_2016_NCAA_Ice_Hockey_Rulebook_3.pdf

I was always under the impression that the 10 minute game misconduct did not have to have a substitute player serving that penalty since it doesn't affect manpower on the ice and the player is already kicked out of the game so he is therefore "serving" the penalty in the locker room, if you will.

Some of the language you posted in the above quote seems more referencing a 10 minute misconduct that is separate from a 10-minute game misconduct. There is a distinction (Rule 21 vs. Rule 22 of the NCAA rulebook). Here is Rule 22 which I think applies to the situation rather than Rule 21.

Rule 22 - Game Misconduct Penalties
22.1
Game Misconduct Penalty

A game misconduct penalty involves the suspension of a player, coach or other non-playing persons for the balance of the game; however, a substitute is permitted to replace a player immediately. The offending player, coach or non-playing persons must leave the bench and playing surface immediately and may not communicate with or contact team personnel in any manner until the game is completed. Any contact with game officials is prohibited. Medical personnel cannot be assessed a game misconduct penalty. A player who is assessed a game misconduct penalty is suspended for the remainder of that game only. The player shall be allowed to play in the team’s next scheduled game.

"Illegal Substitution" search of this NCAA rulebook only brings up 5 search returns and none references much of what you posted above from the USA Hockey rulebook.

When I get down into page 109 things get interesting but I cannot find a specific instance mentioned here.

What is the deal? Did HE officials screw up (GASP)? Am I missing something?

It's interesting that is for sure

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

http://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1084480-rule-404-misconduct-penalties

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

http://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1084480-rule-404-misconduct-penalties

Not fighting with you on this one, but the person running the penalty box definitely screwed up and should have let him out. Can't fault Umile for sending a guy over the boards to get a 5th player back out there even if it was illegal. I would have hoped that would get refs' attention that the box official screwed up and just let things go back to 5x5 once it got squared away.

This is a basic situation that happens a lot and it always involves one player serving the five and returning while play is still running at the end of the 5 minutes.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

I'm not sure about how the USA Hockey Rules applies to college hockey. Ultimately it is an easy slag for the coaching staff (one I took), but irrelevant to UNH hockey or its coaching situation.

 

[cavbim]

I was under the same impression. In essence Cleland served his own misconduct. Clearly they did not keep Miller in the box for an extra 10 minutes---Umile picked him to serve the illegal sub penalty so clearly he was not considered serving the penalty.

As Nick said this appears to be a case of the always on the ball HEA officials messing up. Technically I understand the minor and I do not know what the remedy is when a team commits a penalty because of an official. The offending official in my book is the minor official in charge of the the UNH penalty box. He appeared to not know the rules and in his mind Miller had 15 minutes to serve not 5 (which would be wrong). Being the deciding game of a playoff game if I was Umile I would be ******ed. I think UNH served the penalty correctly but the minor official kept them shorthand ed longer then by rule. It should be noted opening night a visiting Clarkson's player took a penalty and a GM the box score is written same way. Major served by another player the GM only list the player in the locker room serving it.

Really sounds like insufficient training by Hockey East. Possibly considering the importance of the game and the fact Merrimack hires the minor officials a little more. Hmmm???

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

I was under the same impression. In essence Cleland served his own misconduct. Clearly they did not keep Miller in the box for an extra 10 minutes---Umile picked him to serve the illegal sub penalty so clearly he was not considered serving the penalty.

As Nick said this appears to be a case of the always on the ball HEA officials messing up. Technically I understand the minor and I do not know what the remedy is when a team commits a penalty because of an official. The offending official in my book is the minor official in charge of the the UNH penalty box. He appeared to not know the rules and in his mind Miller had 15 minutes to serve not 5 (which would be wrong). Being the deciding game of a playoff game if I was Umile I would be ******ed. I think UNH served the penalty correctly but the minor official kept them shorthand ed longer then by rule. It should be noted opening night a visiting Clarkson's player took a penalty and a GM the box score is written same way. Major served by another player the GM only list the player in the locker room serving it.

Really sounds like insufficient training by Hockey East. Possibly considering the importance of the game and the fact Merrimack hires the minor officials a little more. Hmmm???

Absolutely Umile should be totally peeved about this.

Also, as you mentioned, here is what a normal box score entry looks like on another similar set of infractions (no one serves the 10-mins):
BC-2 Miles Wood (5-Cross-Checking) (Served by JD Dudek) NOE 0x2 14:18
BC-3 Miles Wood (10-Game Misconduct) 14:18

Perhaps most interesting is that on-ice officials used a rule on the subsequent minor penalty that I am not sure was even applied correctly per the NCAA rulebook I posted above per rule 72.1 or 72.2. Since I wasn't at the game, did the player off the bench "interfere with a player in possession of the puck having no opposition between the player and the opposing goalkeeper"? OR "tries to prevent a breakaway"? It certainly wasn't "in the last two minutes of regulation time or any time during overtime"...

Hmmmm.

This is pretty much what you expect out of the league these days.

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Given all that, the penalty had no effect on the outcome of the game.

Pretty simplistic to say that just because a team didn't get scored on the penalty had no effect on the game. At a minimum it's 2 minutes - 10% of the period - in which they're much less likely to score. Beyond that, penalties disrupt a team's flow and rhythm and it can take a while to get back to aggressive, attacking hockey, even after the penalty is over.

Obviously all of the above is with regard to a hockey team that has any semblance of an offense, so not UNH.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

I was under the same impression. In essence Cleland served his own misconduct. Clearly they did not keep Miller in the box for an extra 10 minutes---Umile picked him to serve the illegal sub penalty so clearly he was not considered serving the penalty.

As Nick said this appears to be a case of the always on the ball HEA officials messing up. Technically I understand the minor and I do not know what the remedy is when a team commits a penalty because of an official. The offending official in my book is the minor official in charge of the the UNH penalty box. He appeared to not know the rules and in his mind Miller had 15 minutes to serve not 5 (which would be wrong). Being the deciding game of a playoff game if I was Umile I would be ******ed. I think UNH served the penalty correctly but the minor official kept them shorthand ed longer then by rule. It should be noted opening night a visiting Clarkson's player took a penalty and a GM the box score is written same way. Major served by another player the GM only list the player in the locker room serving it.

Really sounds like insufficient training by Hockey East. Possibly considering the importance of the game and the fact Merrimack hires the minor officials a little more. Hmmm???

Agreed - I've watched a lot of college hockey (so has everyone here) and as I mentioned earlier, I've never seen a second player in the box to serve ten minutes for another player's game-misconduct. I share your opinion, that the off-ice official screwed up. It wasn't a ten minute misconduct, it was a game misconduct. The punishment for that penalty was Cleland getting ejected. UNH and the officials correctly sent a second player to the box to serve the major and the off-ice attendant incorrectly applied the rules on his own which led to the confusion. UNH then got themselves into trouble when they decided to try to rectify the situation on their own. So, I have no issue with them getting another penalty as a result, but it all could have been avoided if HE officiating (or collegiate athletic officiating, in general) was up to par...

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Absolutely Umile should be totally peeved about this.

Also, as you mentioned, here is what a normal box score entry looks like on another similar set of infractions (no one serves the 10-mins):
BC-2 Miles Wood (5-Cross-Checking) (Served by JD Dudek) NOE 0x2 14:18
BC-3 Miles Wood (10-Game Misconduct) 14:18

Perhaps most interesting is that on-ice officials used a rule on the subsequent minor penalty that I am not sure was even applied correctly per the NCAA rulebook I posted above per rule 72.1 or 72.2. Since I wasn't at the game, did the player off the bench "interfere with a player in possession of the puck having no opposition between the player and the opposing goalkeeper"? OR "tries to prevent a breakaway"? It certainly wasn't "in the last two minutes of regulation time or any time during overtime"...

Hmmmm.

This is pretty much what you expect out of the league these days.

Gaudreault jumped on the ice and took a pass immediately. In a normal end of penalty situation, the player in the penalty box has to skate across the ice before a player can replace him from the bench. That's where the illegal substitution penalty comes into play. In general, UNH couldn't decide that since Poturalski is better than Miller they'll just have Poturalski jump onto the ice at the end of a penalty. Again, the problem for UNH in my mind (in addition to the poor officiating) is their trying to fix the mistake on their own. We can only speculate now, but if they just played to get a whistle and complained to the ref it seems to me they'd have a good argument for restoring the lost ten seconds of their power-play once the officials conferred about the mistake...

 

[JB]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

So I have been reading that last 30 something posts about the illegal substitution and Nick is 100% correct.

The player getting the Game Misconduct is serving his penalty somewhere else (locker room) and Miller is serving the 5 minutes in the box. The only time this type of penalty gets 2 in the box is when it is when the original penalty is served in the box. Example a 2 minute minor and a 10-minute misconduct, two players would be in the box.

It is clear to me the officials messed this up. The first time by not letting Miller out of the box when the penalty was over. The second time compounding that error by calling an additional minor. It would seem the right solution once figuring things out (ref error) would have been Miller out of the box and a face-off in whatever zone the puck was in as the equivalent of an inadvertent whistle.

It didn't really impact the game and mercifully the UNH season is over.

 

[JB]

Gaudreault jumped on the ice and took a pass immediately. In a normal end of penalty situation, the player in the penalty box has to skate across the ice before a player can replace him from the bench. That's where the illegal substitution penalty comes into play. In general, UNH couldn't decide that since Poturalski is better than Miller they'll just have Poturalski jump onto the ice at the end of a penalty. Again, the problem for UNH in my mind (in addition to the poor officiating) is their trying to fix the mistake on their own. We can only speculate now, but if they just played to get a whistle and complained to the ref it seems to me they'd have a good argument for restoring the lost ten seconds of their power-play once the officials conferred about the mistake...

I have less faith in the Hockey East officials. What if Merrimack scored in that however many second gap? Pulling that goal off the score board? Do you think the officials would have got that right - I don't.

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

Similar to a 2 minute penalty if no one went to the box or tried to leave after 1 minute?

Completely agree.

One thing, among many, that I don't understand, did Cleland get a 10 minute misconduct or a game misconduct? Seems obvious it was a game, so why didn't anyone need to serve a 10?

It seems that the penalty box official was in error. In combination with the referee being in error by not telling UNH to put someone in the box to serve the misconduct, if in fact, anyone had to serve a misconduct other than Cleland who left the game.

The only thing you might fault Umile for is sending someone off the bench when they wouldn't let Miller out of the box. Smarter play might have been to continue to play shorthanded. I don't think I've EVER seen a game protest lead to much but if UNH had played shorthanded for 2 or 3 minutes due to the referees error, not even mentioning if Merrimack had scored in that time, that would almost sounds like grounds to play the whole thing over again. However, that's never happened to my knowledge, and it's easy say that what the UNH coaches should have done now, outside of the heat of the game.

 

[HockeyRef]

I was under the same impression. In essence Cleland served his own misconduct. Clearly they did not keep Miller in the box for an extra 10 minutes---Umile picked him to serve the illegal sub penalty so clearly he was not considered serving the penalty.

As Nick said this appears to be a case of the always on the ball HEA officials messing up. Technically I understand the minor and I do not know what the remedy is when a team commits a penalty because of an official. The offending official in my book is the minor official in charge of the the UNH penalty box. He appeared to not know the rules and in his mind Miller had 15 minutes to serve not 5 (which would be wrong). Being the deciding game of a playoff game if I was Umile I would be ******ed. I think UNH served the penalty correctly but the minor official kept them shorthand ed longer then by rule. It should be noted opening night a visiting Clarkson's player took a penalty and a GM the box score is written same way. Major served by another player the GM only list the player in the locker room serving it.

Really sounds like insufficient training by Hockey East. Possibly considering the importance of the game and the fact Merrimack hires the minor officials a little more. Hmmm???

I'm really glad you pointed out the TIME that was lost on that additional penalty...and again I'm not defending our abysmal play...but a lot can happen in 2 mins....heck in 10 seconds. Ugh. Bet this is a lesson not long to be forgotten. (Unlike this season...just saying)

I'm still baffled UNH has had this same scenario it isn't the first time this season we've dealt with a GM...how did this one go so horribly bad?!? Surely I must've missed something in translation...

EDIT: after reading so many of these great posts (appreciate you guys from other boards coming by today btw) I'm in full agreement; veery possible umpire error. Hind sight is as they say 20/20....but it still reeks.

 

[Darius]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times

I'm really glad you pointed out the TIME that was lost on that additional penalty...and again I'm not defending our abysmal play...but a lot can happen in 2 mins....heck in 10 seconds. Ugh. Bet this is a lesson not long to be forgotten. (Unlike this season...just saying)

I'm still baffled UNH has had this same scenario it isn't the first time this season we've dealt with a GM...how did this one go so horribly bad?!? Surely I must've missed something in translation...

By not consulting with Eiserman.