UNH Hockey 2023 Off Season Thread Turn and Face the Strange

[Darius]

My question is, since the facilities is such a big deal (yes, I absolutely feel that it is imp
ortant) did you get any sense of the timing on this. A hoped for completion date?

https://www.unionleader.com/sports/...cle_422296d9-3d6e-57c9-ad0d-d7f290380aff.html

“…the $8 million, along with an additional amount — at least $8 million the university is looking to raise through private donations — will be used to renovate the home and visiting locker rooms for the men’s and women’s hockey teams and to build both a new study and strength and conditioning area for student-athletes.”

“The arena’s HVAC and sound systems will also be updated using entirely university funds…”

“The HVAC and locker room renovations and building the strength and conditioning and study areas do not yet have a timetable for completion… will begin as soon as they possibly can. The sound system will be updated this spring after the hockey season.”

I believe the Governor’s $8 million request was reduced to $7 million by the House. Earlier this month the Senate Finance Committee reduced the University System of New Hampshire’s appropriation for the next biennium by $6.4 million. I think the Whitt $ is separate from that. Not sure when the budget goes to the full Senate for approval.

 

[Darius]

I believe it’s June 8th when the senate votes on the budget. Things could immediately start if funding is approved. I believe it will be done in phases so things can open and be in use. Field hockey will also get facilities as they play in front.

Thank you.

The dreaded cross posting.

 

[NCAA watcher]

If you mean their recent performance differentiated from each other and UNH, recruiting and coaching.

Hopefully this does not fully trickle down to hockey. If it does, some schools will have hard decisions. UNH is in a better place to make those and other changing landscape decisions now than it was a few years ago.

You seem to be suggesting the Big 10 football schools will share their revenues with other departments like hockey. I'm skeptical that they will, as they'll always find another hottub that the football team needs.
But that was the premise to my question, which was that if we are already seeing the impact of these revenue differences, then (a) how do you explain the other non-big revenue teams still able to succeed, and (b) in your future scenario, the "haves" will really only be the big 10 schools, and BC/BU/North Dakota. Or should we expect UNH to fare worse than most of the other college programs?

 

[After the Whistle]

Thank you both, Norbert and Darius.
in my experience with state dollars the budget often doesn’t get passed until long after the start of fiscal year - July 1 and no responsible entity will start until the money is real. But that said, if it is bid out, we could see some work fairly soon.

 

[norbert]

I have a good friend who is a Trustee that I should see at a board meeting Monday so I will see if he knows anything about the budget and/or Whit renovations.

Not getting into the specifics of the conversations but willing to have those in person, a lot of what we discuss here is what I brought up Thursday. Fan engagement can go a long way. It will not change the outcome on the ice but for me it would at least show the department is at least trying. For example, if the STH got an email with the schedule a day before it is posted. Not an earth-shattering revelation but it is something. It goes to the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

I think a lot of what happens moving forward falls on AD Rich and what she pushes for the program and lets MS7 implement. Only time will tell the story if true changes happen.

Willing to throw this out there, would anyone be interested in a STH gathering and see if we can get an open forum with some of those involved?

 

[Chuck Murray]

I have been as critical as anyone on this board, and you can call me soft now, but I have a different perspective on everything after yesterday. Don't get me wrong in that subpar records are ok and should not reflect on the staff. But I do honestly feel that the support for men's hockey administratively is not there.

Again I want to be respectful of the conversation yesterday but am willing to have a person conversation with anyone, just reach out.

If I'm being honest norbert, I'm left with no option but to think one of two things happened during your Thursday meeting with MS7. One, he charmed your socks off, and you let him direct the conversation into areas which allowed him to trot out his litany of excuses. Or two, being the nice guy that you are, and chatting with a fellow nice guy, your sense of politeness didn't allow you to dig deep and demand answers to the tough questions. No worries, though, it happens every day at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. ;-) But it sounds like the discussion you guys had the other day was one where you arguably would have been better off interviewing his boss.

I hope everyone on here read Dan's very insightful post (#895) a day or two ago. Hits the nail on the head, repeatedly.

And 'Ref, I too struggle with the comment, "Some of that is coaching and development so that is up for debate". No, actually when you are the Head Hockey Coach, that is THE mission - NOT the debate. Otherwise, what is the coach other than a well-paid facilities tour guide who dabbles in coaching a couple days per week? Are we to believe the difference between MS7 and Ben Barr (UMaine) is just down to really bad luck?? What does success look like in Mike Souza's eyes, and shouldn't at least a couple winning seasons have factored into the last eight seasons he's been significantly involved in?

Norb, sorry to be the guy who pizzed in the punchbowl ... but despite your best intentions, you let MS7 off the hook.

 

[norbert]

If I'm being honest norbert, I'm left with no option but to think one of two things happened during your Thursday meeting with MS7. One, he charmed your socks off, and you let him direct the conversation into areas which allowed him to trot out his litany of excuses. Or two, being the nice guy that you are, and chatting with a fellow nice guy, your sense of politeness didn't allow you to dig deep and demand answers to the tough questions. No worries, though, it happens every day at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. ;-) But it sounds like the discussion you guys had the other day was one where you arguably would have been better off interviewing his boss.

I hope everyone on here read Dan's very insightful post (#895) a day or two ago. Hits the nail on the head, repeatedly.

And 'Ref, I too struggle with the comment, "Some of that is coaching and development so that is up for debate". No, actually when you are the Head Hockey Coach, that is THE mission - NOT the debate. Otherwise, what is the coach other than a well-paid facilities tour guide who dabbles in coaching a couple days per week? Are we to believe the difference between MS7 and Ben Barr (UMaine) is just down to really bad luck?? What does success look like in Mike Souza's eyes, and shouldn't at least a couple winning seasons have factored into the last eight seasons he's been significantly involved in?

Norb, sorry to be the guy who pizzed in the punchbowl ... but despite your best intentions, you let MS7 off the hook.

There are a few things at play here. I had full intentions of going in guns blazing and our conversation was just that, a conversation. As I mentioned earlier it is hard to write how the conversation went. I have been one of the biggest critics and negative people on this message board especially from a performance aspect. And I still think he needs to put a team on the ice the performs, but it was also eye opening to the behind-the-scenes stuff that the program has to go through to get to that point.

I am trying to be as honest with this group and also respectful of MS7 who took almost 2 hours to talk with me that included Colin who came in an talked as well. I would love to have a conversation with with AD Rich as well to see what she has to say, but that is another barrier to cross.

I am not trying to be an apologist, but this is just more than getting guys in the door and having great talent. The things that everyone says are excuses are reality.

As mentioned, I wanted to go in and hammer the lack of performance, but it turned more into an information session. I really got an insight into the behind-the-scenes stuff that these coaches go through and it's not easy. We talked a lot about players, recruits, etc.

For example, MS7 wants to create a coach's club to allow fan access to have these conversations to engage with fans and also raise money but it seems like a struggle to get it to become a reality. There were some point blank questions asked about players coming in or leaving and the answers were all logical.

While I had hoped for more answers on Xs and Os along with where the program can go, a lot of the conversation ended up centered around fan engagement. Asses in the seats brings in more money, provides a better experience for the game, and also as a recruiting tool.

You can call the conversation anything you want, but I would rather have had the insight versus an adversarial 20 minutes.

I would love to get "the group" together and discuss. I would rather recap and talk this through in person than on a message board. plus again my word count is in Chuck territory which is frightening.

 

[norbert]

Thanks again for meeting with Coach and sharing your thoughts. You are not soft, just realistic. I have a couple of friends who provide me with one/two degrees of separation from direct interaction with Coach Souza, the program and the athletic department. I have never had the impression that UNH Hockey was the house on fire, about to implode into nothingness, dysfunctional mess that this board would have us think. Is anyone happy with the current state of the program? No. Would everyone like improvement? Yes. Have positive changes that we cannot see occurred since the coaching transition? Yes.

College sports are transitioning to a pay the players model. Schools and programs need to figure out where they want to be when it all shakes out. I can envision a not to distant future with an NCAA structure similar to football where there are semi-pro (FBS) and traditional (FCS) divisions for many sports. It will not be pretty for many programs with great histories that are not Alabama football, UConn hoops, MN hockey, etc. UNH is aware, well positioned and adapting to continue meeting the athletic department's mission statement: https://unhwildcats.com/sports/2021/...statement.aspx

One thing I am curious about from your meeting, did you get any gut sense of Coach's perception of his future at UNH?

As for the future, the impression was optimistic but I also am not Nieve enough to think a head coach would say, yeah kids coming in won't help. I have not looked at the news, but I was told there are some kinds coming in that has not been released. I do know that Tyler will carry the bulk of the load in net this year so I think this could be good.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Thanks for being engaged, Norbert. Your observations have added to the picture. Not sure it changes my conclusion, but its always good to have information, and you taking the time to do the leg work is great.

 

[HockeyRef]

I have a good friend who is a Trustee that I should see at a board meeting Monday so I will see if he knows anything about the budget and/or Whit renovations.

Not getting into the specifics of the conversations but willing to have those in person, a lot of what we discuss here is what I brought up Thursday. Fan engagement can go a long way. It will not change the outcome on the ice but for me it would at least show the department is at least trying. For example, if the STH got an email with the schedule a day before it is posted. Not an earth-shattering revelation but it is something. It goes to the sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

I think a lot of what happens moving forward falls on AD Rich and what she pushes for the program and lets MS7 implement. Only time will tell the story if true changes happen.

Willing to throw this out there, would anyone be interested in a STH gathering and see if we can get an open forum with some of those involved?

We (STH) often do get the schedule ahead of others...at least that's what I remember from years past. Not that it's a huge deal but always wonder why UNH seems to out its schedule out later than others but that's how they do it.
The HE schedule is out...(well, according to the schedules thread UMass seems to have it but it doesn't really come out til late in the summer in its entirety)

I will say this...if Mike Souza really wants a "Coaches Club" then make it happen. I really wonder if he does but like I have already mentioned there is a group who has met with like minded fans. This group you speak of would prob talk concerns not glorifying the coach...(With hopefully useful solutions)

We all support UNH hockey in our own way. If you rock the boat tho I'm not sure you'd get an invite..but that remains to be seen.

Chuck I took the time to read Dans info..it was eye opening. I do agree that having decent facilities matter as I've said but there's a whole lot more.

Next time you meet with him (if you do) ask what is the selling point (other than UNH is an excellent place to get an education which it certainly is).

As I was told once "you can't rest on your laurels forever"
which is not to discount the past legacy of UNH Hockey program success. I learned alot from that sage advice.

 

[JB]

If I'm being honest norbert, I'm left with no option but to think one of two things happened during your Thursday meeting with MS7. One, he charmed your socks off, and you let him direct the conversation into areas which allowed him to trot out his litany of excuses. Or two, being the nice guy that you are, and chatting with a fellow nice guy, your sense of politeness didn't allow you to dig deep and demand answers to the tough questions. ...

... but despite your best intentions, you let MS7 off the hook.

Chuck I have know Norbert in the real world for 20+ years and I would not call him a "nice guy". More of a straight shooter who also understands you sometimes get more letting it come to you. I do feel like MS7 poured a little honey in his ear... at the same time I trust it was the best to let the conversation happen and turn 15-20 minutes of what would have been stonewalling into 2 hours of conversational insight.

For example, MS7 wants to create a coach's club to allow fan access to have these conversations to engage with fans and also raise money but it seems like a struggle to get it to become a reality.

This is where I get on MS7. A struggle to become reality is an excuse. Some of this stuff needs a force of will to make it happen. If he truly wants it to happen, he finds his way through hard work to bring it to life. Victim thinking "it is hard, bad things happen to me, it is others fault"... Accountability thinking "what can I do?"... This is an example of MS7 making excuses and being a victim and that in itself explains a lot about the state of the hockey program. I HATE the facilities excuses (see Dan's post and the excellent Miami-Ohio example) and at the same time I understand those upgrades, all that money is outside of MS7 control. Creating a coaches club, freaking figure it out, that is in his control.

 

[Darius]

You seem to be suggesting the Big 10 football schools will share their revenues with other departments like hockey. I'm skeptical that they will, as they'll always find another hottub that the football team needs.
But that was the premise to my question, which was that if we are already seeing the impact of these revenue differences, then (a) how do you explain the other non-big revenue teams still able to succeed, and (b) in your future scenario, the "haves" will really only be the big 10 schools, and BC/BU/North Dakota. Or should we expect UNH to fare worse than most of the other college programs?

I can envision the NCAA, thinking it will apply to football and basketball, letting schools pay players, but paying is allowed for any sport. It is easy for the B1G - all conference teams can pay in all sports or an agreed to subset of sports. Schools in the other conferences that compete with B1G teams have to figure it out. The conferences themselves would find agreement from member teams difficult. In HEA, BC (ACC) is paying football and basketball players so paying hockey players is not a big leap. State funded schools like UNH, UMO, etc. find it very difficult if not impossible impossible to pay. They will have to be creative (NIL?) and perhaps face very difficult decisions such as whether to remain in what is currently Division I. UNH is in a better place than it was a few years ago to make these creative and difficult decisions. Many teams will be caught in the middle. BU has plenty of dough, but what do they want their athletics program to be? Providence (already paying basketball players?) might find it easier. Bottom line, it will be a mess across a sport like hockey and within some conferences. The haves will have more, the others will have less. I don't think UNH will fare worse than most other programs. They will have lots of company.

edit: As far as explaining other non-big revenue teams still able to succeed, I get it. No one, myself included, is happy with the team's performance over the past few years. The coaching staff has to own that.

 

[Darius]

For example, MS7 wants to create a coach's club to allow fan access to have these conversations to engage with fans and also raise money but it seems like a struggle to get it to become a reality.

I will say this...if Mike Souza really wants a "Coaches Club" then make it happen. I really wonder if he does but like I have already mentioned there is a group who has met with like minded fans. This group you speak of would prob talk concerns not glorifying the coach...(With hopefully useful solutions)

I wonder how it would be received if a fan approached AD Rich and Coach Souza and said they would like to work with UNH to create and help run a Coaches Club to support the program. The vision is an organization that is structured, works with and is supported by UNH as the football 'cat Club is. "We are preliminarily organized, have lots of people who would pay a yearly membership fee. We also have a core group willing to volunteer their time to help organize, help create bylaws and if desired by the U and elected by the members, serve agreed to terms as organization officers."

 

[HockeyRef]

I w
I wonder how it would be received if a fan approached AD Rich and Coach Souza and said they would like to work with UNH to create and help run a Coaches Club to support the program. The vision is an organization that is structured, works with and is supported by UNH as the football 'cat Club is. "We are preliminarily organized, have lots of people who would pay a yearly membership fee. We also have a core group willing to volunteer their time to help organize, help create bylaws and if desired by the U and elected by the members, serve agreed to terms as organization officers."

I wonder as well how that would be received; wonder if that group who has met a couple of times has done that? From the names I've heard most are former FOH members. So if Coach Souza
really wants this to come to fruition, and it seems he is interested in doing just that according to Norbert...then let him be the one to initiate it. When I joined the former group, it was for
one reason only; to support the program. I really didn't know much about Dick Umile other than the basics of who he was, and his past accomplishments.

The last thing I'd join any group would be to have sole interest in the coach...it wasn't about that then, and it wouldn't be about that now. Seems to me, he (Coach) has a lot on
his plate this season...lets see if this actually happens and if he is the one that brings it about...

Are there other groups besides this football group doing anything formal like you mention? I'd think UNH has guidelines in place for such group formation (formal that is).

 

[Chuck Murray]

Chuck I have know Norbert in the real world for 20+ years and I would not call him a "nice guy". More of a straight shooter who also understands you sometimes get more letting it come to you. I do feel like MS7 poured a little honey in his ear... at the same time I trust it was the best to let the conversation happen and turn 15-20 minutes of what would have been stonewalling into 2 hours of conversational insight.

To be clear, I don't mean to sound unappreciative, and unless norbert is a professional interviewer/interrogator, then it's not an easy task to pull off as an amateur. Definitely one of those "harder than it looks" things for sure. Due to the nature of my day job, I'm a little more comfortable with dealing in adversarial terms than most folks are. JB, your point is well taken and accurate - sometimes you do get more out of listening and letting your subject lead the discussion. But here's the thing ... let's say you listen for 90+ minutes and let your subject touch on all of his points ... wouldn't the subject be left somewhat hesitant - out of a sense of fairness - to shut down that final section of the discussion where you DO ask some frank, potentially difficult questions? I mean, you let him go for 90 minutes ... and he can't give you some run for a final 15-20 minutes???

Maybe the argument then is, were the final 15-20 minutes of hard questioning worth ending the chance of future discussions? In this instance, I'm not sure norbert had any expectations for future discussions? I don't know how he got the opportunity, and I don't know if there were any ground rules going in? It didn't seem like there were any ground rules, other than decency (and that's typical/fine). If there was no expectation of any further discussions ... what do you lose then by "going hard" the final 15-20 minutes, after letting your subject lead his guided tour for 90 minutes? Nothing, right?? Unless you have developed an expectation that, just maybe, this might turn into more than a one-off thing? And then you may indeed be hesitant to interrogate your subject at the end as I've suggested, in what may very well have turned into a very fluid situation.

But if you never get around to asking the tough questions - be it the first time, second time, or the last time - you basically become a glorified stenographer for your subject.

norbert did a good job of collecting information on a lot of different off-the-ice issues, I don't want to overlook that. But as far as on-ice issues, he has to get an incomplete. norbert - do you think you'll get a second bite of the apple?

 

[Chuck Murray]

I wonder how it would be received if a fan approached AD Rich and Coach Souza and said they would like to work with UNH to create and help run a Coaches Club to support the program. The vision is an organization that is structured, works with and is supported by UNH as the football 'cat Club is. "We are preliminarily organized, have lots of people who would pay a yearly membership fee. We also have a core group willing to volunteer their time to help organize, help create bylaws and if desired by the U and elected by the members, serve agreed to terms as organization officers."

Why do we have to pussyfoot around and call it "Coaches Club"? Why not just call it "Friends of UNH Hockey"??

 

[HockeyRef]

Why do we have to pussyfoot around and call it "Coaches Club"? Why not just call it "Friends of UNH Hockey"??

Bingo. But just some info, there were a few 'tiers' of the former FOH one could join, depending on the $$ you wanted to spend. The
former 'coaches club' was one step up from the basic membership (if I have that right) which got you into just about all of the
events. If you wanted to spend more $$, you got invites to more 'exclusive' events like 'senior night' etc...

I doubt I'd join a new group if it were 'coach centric'....

 

[Chuck Murray]

In retrospect, I think a question that could have lent insight into how MS7 views the relative importance of facilities can/should be framed in the future this way:

"Coach Souza, when you were a player, you were part of the second recruiting class to matriculate as frosh players at a brand-new Whittemore Center ('96/'97). What role did those brand-new facilities play in your decision as a then-18 yr. old kid coming to Durham? Who recruited you for UNH, and what did they sell you on? How much weight did you give to the program's tradition, as well as their current status back then as an annual NCAA contender? How much weight did you put on the coaching staff's ability to advance your career to the next level, where you'd be drafted in the 3rd round of the NHL Draft at the end of your freshman year? Did other schools compete to recruit you as a player, and how did you arrive at your decision to come to UNH?"

There's a lot of compelling details to be pulled from that line of questioning to apply to how he recruits as a coach now.

 

[Snively65]

I am sorry, but I am now thinking that MS7 is even more of a fraud as a coach and recruiter than I thought he was. I am just not buying any of what MS7 is trying to sell us through Norbert.

“Coach’s Club”? Come on, get real, MS7. There is a reason why the mainstream media are no longer interested in talking to you about the hockey program; the answer lies in the past eight years of your record, and the previous two years of your predecessor’s.

The past decade has been much worse than the mediocrity of the previous decade following our run that essentially ended after 2003. I would be happy with some mediocrity at this point. Perpetual 9th, 10th, and 11th place finishes in HEA and south of 30 in Div 1 PWR year after year is sub-mediocrity.

 

[HockeyRef]

This just hit me...when has Ben Barr ever mentioned his facilities as a stumbling block..checks notes they finished where.in HE this season???

Instead...he (Barr) sends his fans a heartfelt note thanking them for their support and it was more than obvious he has a special affinity for his players.

Not saying the same needed to happen on our end but gee alittle outward news other than "I can't win because my facility" would be a start..

Ps...and I have been guilty of this axiom "blame is the surest way to stay stuck in a situation"