UNH Hockey 2023 Off Season Thread Turn and Face the Strange

[e.cat]

Before Lonborg injured his knee skiing, Dick Williams started him on two days rest in Game 7 of the 1967 WS after he had won games 2 and 5 against the Cards, despite everyone telling Williams that Lonborg was not ready to go. Lonborg got shelled for six runs, and Bob Gibson, who won Games 1 and 4, easily won Game 7. Williams was deservedly fired. After his skiing knee injury in December, 1967, Lonborg was never the same 22-win and Cy Young pitcher of 1967, but hung around with the Sox, Brewers, and Phillies until retirement in 1979. Gentleman Jim then earned a dental degree at Tufts in 1983 (he was premed at Stanford before pursuing his MLB career), and ran a dental practice in Hanover, Mass., until retirement in 2017 (at age 75!).


Another trivia question, multiple choice.

Gentleman Jim Lonborg injured his knee skiing in December 1967 at:
a) Mount Wachusetts, Mass.
b) Gunstock Mountain, N.H.
c) Lake Tahoe, Nev.
d) Stowe, Vt.

So it looks like the consensus is that Gentleman Jim Lonborg did in fact break his leg and sustained ligament damage as well in a skiing accident in New Hampshire. Moving on

 

[Chuck Murray]

Jim Lonborg caught a second wind later in his career when pitching with the Phillies, and won 18 games in 1976 when the Phils were emerging as a force in the NL East. Three years later in 1979, Lonborg retired, one year before the Phillies won their first-ever World Series title, but Jim was already into his next career, graduating from Tufts in 1983 to become a prominent South Shore dentist back in the Boston area for the duration.

I won a spelling bee in the second grade (1968/1969?) and got to pick from among a few prizes on offer, but quickly chose a baseball that had been autographed by none other than Jim Lonborg. That probably would now have some market value to it, but in those days, I'm pretty sure it got plenty of use in pickup/sandlot baseball before going through some neighbor's window during batting practice down the street.

Those were fun times, I wouldn't change a thing ...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Snives, it looks like the Dartmouth thread is flat-lining already (shocking, eh?).

Should we go resuscitate it, or just let Nature run its course??

 

[Snively65]

I'll guess it was Gunstock, Snives. Definitely was not Tahoe. Lonborg was NOT a Tahoe kinda guy.

Just to clarify ... the Sox didn't fire Williams because he started Lonborg on 2 days' rest for Game 7 in '67. He was fired almost two years later at the end of the '69 season. Williams didn't have a whole lot of viable options for Game 7 ... IIRC Lonborg started the regular season finale vs. the Twins on the Sunday before the WS. That was the penultimate season of no divisional play/no playoffs for MLB, you either won the pennant and went directly to the WS or your season was over. The Cardinals were a juggernaut in the mid-'60's, and won their pennant with days to spare, so they could set up Gibson for the usual Games 1-4-7 trifecta. Williams tried to thread the needle with Lonborg on Games 2-5-7.

Also, keep in mind that up through most of the '70's there were four (4) man rotations used by most teams, and pitch count limitations and Nerd Ball (via Bill James) hadn't really started yet. I have a vague recollection of Wilbur Wood - lefty knuckleball pitcher for the White Sox in his prime - starting both ends of a doubleheader even. Guys like Gibson, Drysdale, and earlier Koufax would routinely pile up over 150 pitches and pitch complete games. Plus that was also a few years before the DH became a thing in the then-inferior AL. So "only" two days' rest was about one less day than the usual 3 days against Hibson, who knows of rest that starters in a 4 man rotation enjoyed.

Link for a 5 minute video of WS Game 7 appears below. TRIVIA QUESTION:

After Tony C's horrific beaning, who did the Sox trade for to pick up the slack in right field in his absence?

Apparently Gentleman Jim was a Tahoe kinda guy. Remember that he did four years of pre-med at Stanford.

Agree that Dick W did not get fired until the end of the 1969 season, but I think that starting Lonborg on two days rest despite his bullpen staff telling him that day Gentleman Jim had nothing during warm up was the beginning of the end, as Dick had horrible rapoire with his players. I think that dismissing Ken Harrelson at the beginning of the 1969 season did not help either, as the Hawk had become a fan favorite. Jose Tartabull (HOFer Danny’s father) picked up Tony C.’s spot in RF, then platooned with Harrelson when the Hawk was released by KC and picked up by the Sox about 10 days later.

I think that Dick should have started Jose Santiago in game 7, as he pitched great in the Sox 2-1 loss in game 1, and was certainly well rested after getting knocked out in the first inning of game 4. Santiago indeed did pitch clean 7th and 8th innings after Lonborg gave up 7 runs in the first six innings of game 7. Given that the Sox doubled their run output against Gibson in game 7 over game 1, who knows what might have happened in game 7 had Santiago started, maybe a score reversal of game 1?

Gentleman Jim continued to ski well into his later years during his second career as a his dentist in SE Mass.

 

[Snively65]

Snives, it looks like the Dartmouth thread is flat-lining already (shocking, eh?).

Should we go resuscitate it, or just let Nature run its course??

Probably a lost cause, as were my efforts to cultivate Bentley threads a decade ago.

 

[ClOuD 9]

Chase Stevenson to Merrimack per Mike McMahon

 

[HockeyRef]

Chase Stevenson to Merrimack per Mike McMahon

Oh yeah I just saw that...interesting. I had no per-conceived notions on where he would end up, but this wasn't it. I don't mean that in a negative
way about either player or destination...I guess I was surprised. Looks like MC is already adding players to their 2023/24 roster. I know they have to replace
at least what, 7?

 

[Snively65]

Oh yeah I just saw that...interesting. I had no per-conceived notions on where he would end up, but this wasn't it. I don't mean that in a negative
way about either player or destination...I guess I was surprised. Looks like MC is already adding players to their 2023/24 roster. I know they have to replace
at least what, 7?

Just watch the former Captain come back and score a hat trick at the Whitt next season.

 

[HockeyRef]

Just watch the former Captain come back and score a hat trick at the Whitt next season.

I'll bring one of my old UNH hats just...for the occasion! For me anyway this is just like when BvR went to NU. Just a weird what? kind of feeling.

I'll get over it.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Apparently Gentleman Jim was a Tahoe kinda guy. Remember that he did four years of pre-med at Stanford.

Good point, plus Lonborg was a California native to begin with. Just having a hard time reconciling "Gentleman Jim's" fierce reputation as a headhunter on the mound with being from laid-back Cali (plus, he set up stakes locally as a DDS). It's funny, when I was looking up his stats the other day for an earlier post on the '76 Phils, I had to laugh when I saw Lonborg was by far the Phillies' pitcher with the most HBP's (5) that year.

He may not have ever been as fierce as he was pre-injury in '67, but the leopard didn't entirely change his spots!

Agree that Dick W did not get fired until the end of the 1969 season, but I think that starting Lonborg on two days rest despite his bullpen staff telling him that day Gentleman Jim had nothing during warm up was the beginning of the end, as Dick had horrible rapoire with his players. I think that dismissing Ken Harrelson at the beginning of the 1969 season did not help either, as the Hawk had become a fan favorite. Jose Tartabull (HOFer Danny’s father) picked up Tony C.’s spot in RF, then platooned with Harrelson when the Hawk was released by KC and picked up by the Sox about 10 days later.

I think that Dick should have started Jose Santiago in game 7, as he pitched great in the Sox 2-1 loss in game 1, and was certainly well rested after getting knocked out in the first inning of game 4. Santiago indeed did pitch clean 7th and 8th innings after Lonborg gave up 7 runs in the first six innings of game 7. Given that the Sox doubled their run output against Gibson in game 7 over game 1, who knows what might have happened in game 7 had Santiago started, maybe a score reversal of game 1?

I think Williams probably made the best choice in what was a very difficult decision. Keep in mind that Lonborg also kept the Cards off the scoreboard in the first two innings in Game 7 before they began to chip away at him. The decision not to start Santiago was probably largely based on what you mentioned about the outcome of his Game 4 start (highlighted). I think if you went back to Santiago, and left your best guy (Lonborg) unused, that's a decision you probably take to your grave someday if Santiago gets shelled (again).

FWIW the same exact scenario transpired a year later with the Tigers and Cards in the '68 WS, when St. Louis galloped out to a 3-1 Series lead before their AL opposition won two games to force a Game 7. But in '68 it was Mickey Lolich of the Tigers who was going on two days' rest and (again) the dominant Bob Gibson going on a full (for the era) three days' rest. Detroit beat the invincible Gibson 4-1 in Game 7 when St. Louis' Gold Glove CF misplayed a Jim Northrup fly ball into a triple. Furthermore, Detroit also won Game 6 with Denny McClain (who had lost twice to Gibson in Games 1 and 4) going on two days' rest. So the whole "rest" issue - while not ideal - was hardly out-of-the-box thinking at the time, and it's something that paid off handsomely for the Tigers in '68, even if it didn't work for Williams and Lonborg in '67.

It's also probably unfair to say that Williams had a poor rapport with his team in '67 when he was a first year manager leading a (badly) losing '66 team to the '67 Series. I'm assuming the issues Williams had with the "bullpen staff" revolved around pitching coach Sal Maglie (known as "The Barber" as a player for his reputation for "close shaves", adopted by the aforementioned Lonborg to great effect), who'd take the ball whenever needed for the Giants and Dodgers in his reputable playing days as staff ace. There's an interesting backstory to the Williams-Maglie thing that I've just read this morning, which explains the situation from both sides, and might begin to explain one of the early developments that began to chip away at Williams' initial popularity (plus the Hawk situation in '69 as you mentioned). Williams definitely was one to wear out a welcome, as Oakland, California, Montreal and San Diego would later learn.

Sal Maglie – Society for American Baseball Research (sabr.org)

One last comment on Lonborg's Game 7 performance ... he was ultimately undone by the relatively unheralded Julian Javier, who earlier in the Series had broken up a potential Lonborg no-hitter relatively late in Game 2. And in Game 7, with the Sox still within shouting distance down 4-1, Lonborg had the first two hitters reach (one on an error) in the 6th inning before Javier blew the game open with a 3 run HR to make it 7-1 Cards behind a strong Gibson. Game set match. Not Orlando Cepeda ... not Lou Brock ... not Roger Maris ... not Tim McCarver. Julian 'flippin Javier, pre-saging the exploits a decade later from the similarly unheralded Bucky 'flippin Dent.

REALLY HARD TRIVIA QUESTION: Which pitcher(s) finished up the 9th inning in '67 Game 7 for the Sox?

 

[Felger]

REALLY HARD TRIVIA QUESTION: Which pitcher(s) finished up the 9th inning in '67 Game 7 for the Sox?

Ken Brett?

 

[Chuck Murray]

Ken Brett?

That's the final of three pitchers the Sox used in the 9th. Bonus points for the other two (one I never heard of) ...

 

[Chuck Murray]

Chase Stevenson to Merrimack per Mike McMahon

What a chump. Then again, what does this say about MS7? Losing your captain/leader ... to Merrimack?!?!?

Yowzah ... somewhere out there, ScottyB has to be laughing a contentedly devious, Dr. Evil laugh ...

 

[HockeyRef]

What a chump. Then again, what does this say about MS7? Losing your captain/leader ... to Merrimack?!?!?

Yowzah ... somewhere out there, ScottyB has to be laughing a contentedly devious, Dr. Evil laugh ...

On board less the chump part...but yeah I figured someone would say something about the overall "optics".
It's just the principle of the thing and Im looking forward to seeing Chase play next season.

Interesting dynamic..this UNH / MC thing...

 

[Chuck Murray]

On board less the chump part...but yeah I figured someone would say something about the overall "optics".
It's just the principle of the thing and Im looking forward to seeing Chase play next season.

Interesting dynamic..this UNH / MC thing...

"This UNH / MC thing" is friggin' embarassing, that's what it is. Used to at least compete for HEA and NCAA titles, now we are a distant fourth place in the Rte. 495 Cup behind PC, Lowell and Merrimack now even.

I get the charitable thing with your comments HR, but UNH serving as the league's doormat isn't fun, it's a flippin' travesty, and everyone who is responsible for this, I want them out yesterday. And that includes the former captain, who believed in the program SO much that he decided to basically take a dump on MS7, his staff, the school and its loyal fans. I'm looking forward to seeing Chase play next season too. In Kalamazoo.

 

[HockeyRef]

"This UNH / MC thing" is friggin' embarassing, that's what it is. Used to at least compete for HEA and NCAA titles, now we are a distant fourth place in the Rte. 495 Cup behind PC, Lowell and Merrimack now even.

I get the charitable thing with your comments HR, but UNH serving as the league's doormat isn't fun, it's a flippin' travesty, and everyone who is responsible for this, I want them out yesterday. And that includes the former captain, who believed in the program SO much that he decided to basically take a dump on MS7, his staff, the school and its loyal fans. I'm looking forward to seeing Chase play next season too. In Kalamazoo.

You guessed it...I'm trying to be charitable about it. Player can skate wherever they want obviously. It is disconcerting I get that. And I do not like that UNH as a doormat thing
either. Enough already.

In hockey withdrawal..thank God for the Bruins.

 

[Basement Bias]

You guessed it...I'm trying to be charitable about it. Player can skate wherever they want obviously. It is disconcerting I get that. And I do not like that UNH as a doormat thing
either. Enough already.

In hockey withdrawal..thank God for the Bruins.

We need a run in the HE tournament like CC did this year in the NCHC.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Well folks, Happy Day After April Fool's Day!! Seeing that MS7 has apparently somehow managed to make it through to see the final year of his UNH contract. I dedicate the following to UNH for taking the easy way out ...

... once again, at the expense of the thousands of us they've managed to increasingly alienate for over a decade ...

 

[RENCEB]

What a chump. Then again, what does this say about MS7? Losing your captain/leader ... to Merrimack?!?!?

I know, right? I was thinking the same thing about all those players flocking to UNH via the portal; oh, wait, there aren't any!
Good for Chase. Leadership players are always welcome, and by all accounts he's been that at UNH. Hope he gets to enjoy a winning season next year.
I certainly understand that being the doormat is no fun. WAY too many seasons where Merrimack has gotten stomped on through the Serino era, during some of the Dennehy tenure, and at the beginning of Borek's time here. I hope that Borek can keep them in the mix.

 

[Snively65]

I know, right? I was thinking the same thing about all those players flocking to UNH via the portal; oh, wait, there aren't any!
Good for Chase. Leadership players are always welcome, and by all accounts he's been that at UNH. Hope he gets to enjoy a winning season next year.
I certainly understand that being the doormat is no fun. WAY too many seasons where Merrimack has gotten stomped on through the Serino era, during some of the Dennehy tenure, and at the beginning of Borek's time here. I hope that Borek can keep them in the mix.

With any luck, you will get the Stevenson who finally showed up for his senior year (12 G + 8 A = 20 pts in 35 games). He was only 8 G + 7 A = 15 points in 61 games over his first three seasons, although only four of those games were played during his sophomore season with 0 pts. However, Stevenson really did step up in his leadership role as captain during his senior year. I think that he will be missed at the Whitt.