Agreed. I suppose the dirty hippies would have to be okay with that. My grandfather, a native Vermonter and huge Sox fan, would approve posthumously!
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UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
- Thread starter Dan
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Agreed. I suppose the dirty hippies would have to be okay with that. My grandfather, a native Vermonter and huge Sox fan, would approve posthumously!
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Souza "seized the opportunity" back in the summer of '15. The jury remains very much out on what's happened since. Some of us want to measure him by not only his first two weeks of head coaching results (in addition to having actually been in total and complete control of the program since last March, which was over 7 months ago), but also for his role as the lead recruiter, AHC and head coach in situ for the final three years of the Umile Era. I think it's fair to say that Dan and myself are in this camp, while others are viewing the HC role more rigidly, and have given him a totally clean slate as of two weekends ago. We can agree to disagree there.
I don't think those of us who would put Coach Souza on a shorter leash are calling for his dismissal anytime soon. Speaking for myself … if we see another two seasons of further deterioration of the program, then yeah, I think it's time to have a serious discussion about his future in Durham. That would be a five (5) year run in a very significant capacity, regardless of how you choose to classify those first three seasons. If there aren't any signs of recovery by then - or worse yet, further deterioration - then I'm not sure why there wouldn't be a valid reason to revisit the program's direction.
My concern is that, drawing upon their experience with Coach MacDonnell, BS35+6 may opt to play the long game with Souza too, figuring how it did pay off on the Football side once upon a time. Coach Herrion's continued presence on the UNH payroll speaks further to that mindset. The potentially looming retirement of our uber-experienced department head may also assist the current underperforming incumbent(s), if the guy in charge remains firmly in his current "cruise control" mindset and kicks the can on any big decisions down the road far enough where it only becomes an issue for his eventual successor as AD. Part of me thinks this was already a huge factor in his approach to handling the 3 year Umile-to-Souza transition in the first place.
My expectations for this season were already low to begin with, so putting undue emphasis on a slow start to the season isn't something I'm going to engage in. We need only look back to last season to see how unimportant early-season wins were in the final analysis of Coach Umile's swan song. UNH has been known - even in its heyday - as "Champions of November", etc. The trick to long term success at the highest levels anywhere is to get someone in who figures out how things work at the other end of the season. It would be a nice start to his career if Souza's first team - a team that's been assembled mostly under his watch already - makes significant positive measurable progress over the course of this season. And looking at how things are set up schedule-wise, it looks like he'll have that opportunity. I do hope he's the guy, 'cuz we're not getting any younger …
Souza "seized the opportunity" back in the summer of '15. The jury remains very much out on what's happened since. Some of us want to measure him by not only his first two weeks of head coaching results (in addition to having actually been in total and complete control of the program since last March, which was over 7 months ago), but also for his role as the lead recruiter, AHC and head coach in situ for the final three years of the Umile Era. I think it's fair to say that Dan and myself are in this camp, while others are viewing the HC role more rigidly, and have given him a totally clean slate as of two weekends ago. We can agree to disagree there.
I don't think those of us who would put Coach Souza on a shorter leash are calling for his dismissal anytime soon. Speaking for myself … if we see another two seasons of further deterioration of the program, then yeah, I think it's time to have a serious discussion about his future in Durham. That would be a five (5) year run in a very significant capacity, regardless of how you choose to classify those first three seasons. If there aren't any signs of recovery by then - or worse yet, further deterioration - then I'm not sure why there wouldn't be a valid reason to revisit the program's direction.
My concern is that, drawing upon their experience with Coach MacDonnell, BS35+6 may opt to play the long game with Souza too, figuring how it did pay off on the Football side once upon a time. Coach Herrion's continued presence on the UNH payroll speaks further to that mindset. The potentially looming retirement of our uber-experienced department head may also assist the current underperforming incumbent(s), if the guy in charge remains firmly in his current "cruise control" mindset and kicks the can on any big decisions down the road far enough where it only becomes an issue for his eventual successor as AD. Part of me thinks this was already a huge factor in his approach to handling the 3 year Umile-to-Souza transition in the first place.
My expectations for this season were already low to begin with, so putting undue emphasis on a slow start to the season isn't something I'm going to engage in. We need only look back to last season to see how unimportant early-season wins were in the final analysis of Coach Umile's swan song. UNH has been known - even in its heyday - as "Champions of November", etc. The trick to long term success at the highest levels anywhere is to get someone in who figures out how things work at the other end of the season. It would be a nice start to his career if Souza's first team - a team that's been assembled mostly under his watch already - makes significant positive measurable progress over the course of this season. And looking at how things are set up schedule-wise, it looks like he'll have that opportunity. I do hope he's the guy, 'cuz we're not getting any younger …
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Wow! That's a little harsh. Cora has the best team in baseball. The three best teams in baseball are all in the American League and the Red Sox have taken the other two out already (103 win Yankees and 100 win Astros). Also, you can't compare professional sports to a regional college sport. Give the guy a chance. It's a tough task. He can't be expected to turn things around more quickly just because the guy before allowed the program to wallow in mediocrity. It still takes time to establish his culture and bring in the players that fit his style.
I know you may say "Well, you're an outsider." I can only tell you we are going through the same thing at BU (I know...you have the crying towels ready). Point being, I don't think too many people expected Quinn to bolt after talking about the "best job in college hockey." So it's almost as if those years were down the drain and we're back at square one, building the program back after Parker retired. We're 0-3 and not looking good. But I'm not going to pounce. It takes time.
(and let me be the first to say, since I don't know you, perhaps your post was in jest...if so, my apologies)
Wow! That's a little harsh. Cora has the best team in baseball. The three best teams in baseball are all in the American League and the Red Sox have taken the other two out already (103 win Yankees and 100 win Astros). Also, you can't compare professional sports to a regional college sport. Give the guy a chance. It's a tough task. He can't be expected to turn things around more quickly just because the guy before allowed the program to wallow in mediocrity. It still takes time to establish his culture and bring in the players that fit his style.
I know you may say "Well, you're an outsider." I can only tell you we are going through the same thing at BU (I know...you have the crying towels ready). Point being, I don't think too many people expected Quinn to bolt after talking about the "best job in college hockey." So it's almost as if those years were down the drain and we're back at square one, building the program back after Parker retired. We're 0-3 and not looking good. But I'm not going to pounce. It takes time.
(and let me be the first to say, since I don't know you, perhaps your post was in jest...if so, my apologies)
I think you're reading too much into Snively's post. That said THIS is an absolute fallacy - Souza has spent the last three years planning his culture and recruiting his players to fit that style. He has just done a mediocre job of it - at best. He can and should be held accountable for that. Again, rosters chock full of Souza recruits and specific players Souza has wanted to keep from the Borek classes have won one game since last Dec. 9...
O'Connell meanwhile had the HC job thrust upon him in one offseason and had to work with an HC who didn't check out of recruiting a decade ago. One could easily make the case these aren't all his guys. They are all Souza's guys - case closed. Two of BUs are also narrow losses on the rod at a top-10 program that has been VERY good recently. As an outsider the angst in the BU thread the last few years seems to be frustration with merely being very good and in the mix instead of dominating the competition. The situations are not remotely comparable in my opinion...
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No Snively, he has done nothing to seize anything yet. The team doesn't look significantly changed in any real way - while the Cora team, with the same roster sans one player, has been notably better, more confident and more exciting since spring training day one. His culture was implemented immediately and the same players played much better. The difference between the two immediate impacts is palpable...
Two weekends are not a referendum on Souza's future - but negative Dan predicted the team would be 2-1-1 at this point. So, 0-3-1 is not a good result. They need to beat UVM, as I predicted they would, or that might be a real hint were in for a long season, because the next run of opponents - including UMass - is really strong. After UVM, Miami is probably the worst they'll see (whoopee for me!) until the Dartmouth series and even they're improved...
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Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Fair enough...as I said, I don't "know" him. The only comment I will make is that, although he may have recruited them, I assume that Umile was still making the final decisions vis a vis line changes, style of play, lineups, etc. So my only point was let's see what happens when he has 100% of the control.
Fair enough...as I said, I don't "know" him. The only comment I will make is that, although he may have recruited them, I assume that Umile was still making the final decisions vis a vis line changes, style of play, lineups, etc. So my only point was let's see what happens when he has 100% of the control.
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Of course, I was comparing Cora and Souza in jest, as Cora has unquestionably changed the culture with the Sox this season, and it is still wait and see with Souza and his Souzacats. Although I agree with Chuck and Dan about Souza buying the groceries for the past three years, I think that what he does behind the bench this season is more important. I believe that the coaching from the Cats bench the past few seasons as been even more lacking than the recruiting.
When Cora's bullpen staff seemed to go south after the All-Star Break and his GM did not acquire any relievers by the trade deadline, just about every pundit in town said that the Sox would not make it out of the first round. But, instead of a reliever, Dombrowski acquired an unremarkable starter coming off TJ surgery and two complementary infielders that Cora creatively plugged in to turn things around. Unfortunately, Souza will not have a similar benefit this season, as I am not aware of any players coming in for second semester. You know, like Danny Tirone in January 2015.
Of course, I was comparing Cora and Souza in jest, as Cora has unquestionably changed the culture with the Sox this season, and it is still wait and see with Souza and his Souzacats. Although I agree with Chuck and Dan about Souza buying the groceries for the past three years, I think that what he does behind the bench this season is more important. I believe that the coaching from the Cats bench the past few seasons as been even more lacking than the recruiting.
When Cora's bullpen staff seemed to go south after the All-Star Break and his GM did not acquire any relievers by the trade deadline, just about every pundit in town said that the Sox would not make it out of the first round. But, instead of a reliever, Dombrowski acquired an unremarkable starter coming off TJ surgery and two complementary infielders that Cora creatively plugged in to turn things around. Unfortunately, Souza will not have a similar benefit this season, as I am not aware of any players coming in for second semester. You know, like Danny Tirone in January 2015.
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
“I haven’t really determined whether I’m going to stick with a rotation or not,” Souza said. “I think who’s playing well will play, no different than our position players.”
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20181025/SPORTS22/181029740
In other news the 'cats/Cats game remains a 7:00 PM start.
Correct. A current example:
“I haven’t really determined whether I’m going to stick with a rotation or not,” Souza said. “I think who’s playing well will play, no different than our position players.”
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20181025/SPORTS22/181029740
In other news the 'cats/Cats game remains a 7:00 PM start.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
So that's Mike Robinson getting the nod in goal this weekend then.
So that's Mike Robinson getting the nod in goal this weekend then.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
FWIW although not in charge before this season, Coach Souza has had an up-close-and-personal look at the whole "behind the bench" thing for the last three seasons. I'm sure he wasn't a spectator, and since our former HC wasn't all that big on leading the in-game discussions during breaks and timeouts, Coach Souza (and Stewart) had opportunities to weigh in and direct their teams. I'm probably a little less harsh on this front than Dan … but not by much. This team has his fingerprints all over it, and a string of close one-goal losses to mediocre opposition just tells me the program still reeks of the hangover from their collapse at the end of last season.
This is not a program in need of moral victories. And the next time I hear about how a one goal loss is even a noteworthy topic to be raised, I'm going to start to come to some unflattering conclusions about the message Coach is giving to his players. Can you imagine Walshy telling his guys back in the day …
"Hey, not bad, we only lost by a goal to (fill in the blank), we're getting there!"
Thought not.
Sometimes the biggest trap an elevated assistant can make is to think he can still do the buddy-buddy "good cop" role he used to play in opposition to the HC's "bad cop" role. It's also what makes it doubly hard to succeed with an elevated assistant from the same program. Souza is probably still seen by some of his players as the assistant he used to be, and it's going to take a few tough decisions/challenging situations before it breaks through to them that things have changed. It may not happen completely until the next three classes graduate. If that's the case, Coach Souza might not make it long enough to have seen that through …
FWIW although not in charge before this season, Coach Souza has had an up-close-and-personal look at the whole "behind the bench" thing for the last three seasons. I'm sure he wasn't a spectator, and since our former HC wasn't all that big on leading the in-game discussions during breaks and timeouts, Coach Souza (and Stewart) had opportunities to weigh in and direct their teams. I'm probably a little less harsh on this front than Dan … but not by much. This team has his fingerprints all over it, and a string of close one-goal losses to mediocre opposition just tells me the program still reeks of the hangover from their collapse at the end of last season.
This is not a program in need of moral victories. And the next time I hear about how a one goal loss is even a noteworthy topic to be raised, I'm going to start to come to some unflattering conclusions about the message Coach is giving to his players. Can you imagine Walshy telling his guys back in the day …
"Hey, not bad, we only lost by a goal to (fill in the blank), we're getting there!"
Thought not.
Sometimes the biggest trap an elevated assistant can make is to think he can still do the buddy-buddy "good cop" role he used to play in opposition to the HC's "bad cop" role. It's also what makes it doubly hard to succeed with an elevated assistant from the same program. Souza is probably still seen by some of his players as the assistant he used to be, and it's going to take a few tough decisions/challenging situations before it breaks through to them that things have changed. It may not happen completely until the next three classes graduate. If that's the case, Coach Souza might not make it long enough to have seen that through …
Thanks for the link.Correct. A current example:
“I haven’t really determined whether I’m going to stick with a rotation or not,” Souza said. “I think who’s playing well will play, no different than our position players.”
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20181025/SPORTS22/181029740
In other news the 'cats/Cats game remains a 7:00 PM start.
No doubt Umile was not a fan of goalie rotation.
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Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Walshy's not walking through that door, fans.Can you imagine Walshy telling his guys back in the day …
"Hey, not bad, we only lost by a goal to (fill in the blank), we're getting there!"
Thought not.
This is why he gets at least four years.Sometimes the biggest trap an elevated assistant can make is to think he can still do the buddy-buddy "good cop" role he used to play in opposition to the HC's "bad cop" role. It's also what makes it doubly hard to succeed with an elevated assistant from the same program. Souza is probably still seen by some of his players as the assistant he used to be, and it's going to take a few tough decisions/challenging situations before it breaks through to them that things have changed. It may not happen completely until the next three classes graduate. If that's the case, Coach Souza might not make it long enough to have seen that through …
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
No. Way.
That's a new one for me - gotta give the HC four years to excuse him for (hypothetically) not being respected as a HC by his players? That's ridiculous. He's the head coach, he respects them and they player respects him - and if they don't one of them has to go. You don't let it fester for four years. And if this was a problem, its not one that goes away. A new FR class comes to Durham and they will see how the upperclassmen treat the HC and follow suit. Same with the next class. And four years from now, nothing has changed...
This is all a hypothetical discussion, and I don't buy that his players don't view him as a true HC - but it sure does illustrate the mental gymnastics were trying to do to validate Souza as a HC. Excuse after excuse. Hypothetical reasoning as to why he needs more time. People who like him are quoted as believing in him. I mean, really? It doesn't help him. He will either give us reasons to believe or he wont. He should be under the microscope, this is a big time job in the state of NH. And it will be, unless we start doing things like giving him more time for reasons like him not respected by the players he recruited and needing to recruit new ones. If Souza is proving not to be the guy and you give him 4-5 years for a reason like that - than you might as well sign the death sentence for UNH Hockey...
Souza has a track record of recruiting and coaching at the NCAA level - and at UNH. We can debate what that track record indicates moving forward - and if someone believes he's knocking it out of the park or has, at least, done enough to deserve X more years than that is fine. Point to his track record and talk about why. Instead, I see the reaching sometimes and I wonder if, deep down, a lot of posters are in fact even more concerned than I am and are grasping for anything...
No. Way.
That's a new one for me - gotta give the HC four years to excuse him for (hypothetically) not being respected as a HC by his players? That's ridiculous. He's the head coach, he respects them and they player respects him - and if they don't one of them has to go. You don't let it fester for four years. And if this was a problem, its not one that goes away. A new FR class comes to Durham and they will see how the upperclassmen treat the HC and follow suit. Same with the next class. And four years from now, nothing has changed...
This is all a hypothetical discussion, and I don't buy that his players don't view him as a true HC - but it sure does illustrate the mental gymnastics were trying to do to validate Souza as a HC. Excuse after excuse. Hypothetical reasoning as to why he needs more time. People who like him are quoted as believing in him. I mean, really? It doesn't help him. He will either give us reasons to believe or he wont. He should be under the microscope, this is a big time job in the state of NH. And it will be, unless we start doing things like giving him more time for reasons like him not respected by the players he recruited and needing to recruit new ones. If Souza is proving not to be the guy and you give him 4-5 years for a reason like that - than you might as well sign the death sentence for UNH Hockey...
Souza has a track record of recruiting and coaching at the NCAA level - and at UNH. We can debate what that track record indicates moving forward - and if someone believes he's knocking it out of the park or has, at least, done enough to deserve X more years than that is fine. Point to his track record and talk about why. Instead, I see the reaching sometimes and I wonder if, deep down, a lot of posters are in fact even more concerned than I am and are grasping for anything...
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Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
First of all, a large part of me believes that Scarano will let him coach forever if he stays away from controversy and out of trouble (and if you think I'm frustrated now...). I think that is a huge problem across sports at UNH and may kill UNH Hockey as we once knew it. Scarano makes lazy hires and he lets them stick around forever unless they force his hand (a la Kay/McCloskey) with bad actions and subsequent publicity. I could not care much less about UNH basketball - but thats all the evidence you need. They're never even remotely competitive in the America East and thats completely acceptable, thus the results are completely predictable. So there are MAJOR concerns that go well past the HC position. Additionally, Scarano is the one who put everyone in very difficult positions by agreeing to this awful transition plan. If he had hired Souza away from UConn this off-season, I'd be on board with a longer tenure or grace period...
That said, the transition period was put into place specifically to allow Souza to hit the ground running. Therefore, I still expect him to get up to speed quickly. I would afford Souza two years no matter what (because he deserves it from a good faith stand point if nothing else). Beyond that I'd be prepared to make a quick and decisive change - in an effort to save the program. He doesn't exactly have to set the world on fire to show notable improvement on the ice and in recruiting, but things need to start trending in that direction ASAP. I already have my doubts, as everyone knows, but two years (five in the most important respects) is fair for both sides...
That doesn't mean I wont evaluate as I go. I definitely will. And I hope the tangible signs surrounding the program improve as much as anyone, but I'm not going to pretend they are if they're not. The risk of UNH hockey turning into what we've always viewed UMass to be is very real. And with every sub-.500 (or 5-win season) that passes getting back to UNH Hockey of the 90's and 00's gets exponentially more difficult. The AD needs to take that seriously and act accordingly. And, yes, I would be less vocal if I thought he would or if I thought the actual success of the program was among his primary concerns...
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* based on his past decisions, I wouldn't assume that Scarano not making a move on a HC as an endorsement or a grace-period any more than it might simply be indifference.
First of all, a large part of me believes that Scarano will let him coach forever if he stays away from controversy and out of trouble (and if you think I'm frustrated now...). I think that is a huge problem across sports at UNH and may kill UNH Hockey as we once knew it. Scarano makes lazy hires and he lets them stick around forever unless they force his hand (a la Kay/McCloskey) with bad actions and subsequent publicity. I could not care much less about UNH basketball - but thats all the evidence you need. They're never even remotely competitive in the America East and thats completely acceptable, thus the results are completely predictable. So there are MAJOR concerns that go well past the HC position. Additionally, Scarano is the one who put everyone in very difficult positions by agreeing to this awful transition plan. If he had hired Souza away from UConn this off-season, I'd be on board with a longer tenure or grace period...
That said, the transition period was put into place specifically to allow Souza to hit the ground running. Therefore, I still expect him to get up to speed quickly. I would afford Souza two years no matter what (because he deserves it from a good faith stand point if nothing else). Beyond that I'd be prepared to make a quick and decisive change - in an effort to save the program. He doesn't exactly have to set the world on fire to show notable improvement on the ice and in recruiting, but things need to start trending in that direction ASAP. I already have my doubts, as everyone knows, but two years (five in the most important respects) is fair for both sides...
That doesn't mean I wont evaluate as I go. I definitely will. And I hope the tangible signs surrounding the program improve as much as anyone, but I'm not going to pretend they are if they're not. The risk of UNH hockey turning into what we've always viewed UMass to be is very real. And with every sub-.500 (or 5-win season) that passes getting back to UNH Hockey of the 90's and 00's gets exponentially more difficult. The AD needs to take that seriously and act accordingly. And, yes, I would be less vocal if I thought he would or if I thought the actual success of the program was among his primary concerns...
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* based on his past decisions, I wouldn't assume that Scarano not making a move on a HC as an endorsement or a grace-period any more than it might simply be indifference.
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TovarishchLisa
(Comrade Fox)
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
By a combined score of 12-0 too.
UVM fan here, hoping for a good game tonight, but weird **** seems to always happen when we're at the Whitt.
We are definitely living in a Bizarro World. Both BC and BU are winless three weeks into the regular season....and both teams get shutout on their home ice within 24 hours of each other.
By a combined score of 12-0 too.
UVM fan here, hoping for a good game tonight, but weird **** seems to always happen when we're at the Whitt.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Well, at one time he was. Conklin and Matile alternated all througn 1998-1999 season and he did it again with Ayers and Carney in 2001-2002. Of course, back then he had a real goalie coach in Lassonde and no doubt deferred to him. There is no good reason for Souza to settle on one or the other of these two this early in the season. Play them both until one proves that he can’t cut it. And if they both perform well, what’s wrong with a rotation. UNH has much bigger problems than goaltending. Tend to those first.
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