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Tournament Speculation Thread

Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I remember when we went to the finals against Platty in 87 and Don Unger saying that the NCAA will never allow 2 teams from the same conference the oppertunity to play for the NCAA Championship. Now if the stars and moons had been in order that would have happened last year. But since 87 it has't. For myself I think it is a good thing.
OSwego '89

It has happened twice since '87.

1993- Stevens Point over River Falls
1994- River Falls over Superior
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

You would certainly know of these details better than I, but I'm not so sure that any earth-shaking meeting is required... ( D-1 hockey changed their TUC formula in mid-season last year with profound playoff implications, and without any fanfare/red tape.)

3. It doesn't have to stay this ridiculous forever. A little justified outrage is in order. (If I went to SNC I would be picketing somebody, somewhere, even though they survived the play-in... And I might have my panties in a bunch if I was a Hobart guy,too.)

At the very least, there should be no closed-room BS... Let the players decide things, not a few cloistered stuffed-shirts.

Not saying I disagree with your opinion on the current situation, but... as NUProf said, the DIII bylaws require that the rules be the same across all sports without exception. Any permanent change to the system (the combined SOS metric is in its second year in a two-year trial, so this doesn't apply to that) needs to be approved by a majority of ALL 449 DIII members (not just hockey-sponsoring members). As NUProf said, the basketball and football programs out there are fairly content with the system as-is. And even for DIII, those two sports are the big-ticket money-makers, so this isn't likely to be changed. Could they pass new legislation allowing a 1-sport exception? Certainly. But I think we've seen enough evidence through the years that non-hockey schools couldn't give two s**ts about hockey. There are 72 programs that currently sponsor (or will soon sponsor) a hockey program. Last time I checked, 72 is not a majority of 449.

That said, I absolutely agree that changes are needed for the good of hockey. But the reality is that this just isn't going to happen, because the power lies in the hands of people who have no concern for the good of hockey.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

Also, in regards to St. Norbert:

Did SNC deserve a bye? Depends on how you look at it. #1 in their region is a great justification. But where were they overall? Probably the only team not rightfully ahead of them for the bye as Elmira.

Did St. Thomas, MSOE, or Gustavus deserve byes ahead of Elmira, Plattsburgh, Amherst, and Oswego? No. I'd go so far as to say NONE of those west teams deserve a bye ahead of ANY of those east teams.

But because of the 500-mile rule which I believe exists for valid reasons in the current economic climate, the only options the committee had were 2 first-round games out west, or 2 QF games out west. So their options were to screw SNC by giving Elmira the bye ahead of them, or to screw Plattsburgh, Amherst, AND Oswego by playing them in the first round with EC and give all 4 west teams the bye. Which would you choose? I'd go the same route as the committee: Screw the #5 overall rather than help them out at the expense of the #2, #3, AND #4 overall.

St. Thomas over Hobart is an entirely different story, and I think that was absolute BS (and it would have resolved the SNC issue quite easily), but SNC not receiving the bye is, as it was 2 years ago when the Knights hosted Adrian, completely justifiable under the 500-mile rule, which I will again say that I think serves a valuable purpose.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

You would certainly know of these details better than I, but I'm not so sure that any earth-shaking meeting is required... ( D-1 hockey changed their TUC formula in mid-season last year with profound playoff implications, and without any fanfare/red tape.)

In an attempt to call the dogs off an errant trail, I'll say this:

1. Nothing personal intended, Prof. You're obviously a nice person, plenty smart, and a true fan of the game... But with all due respect, you seem determined to defend the indefensible. I don't believe for one second that you truly buy into the process, or consider it either equitable or immutable. (Not putting words in your mouth, just speculating here.)

At the very least, there should be no closed-room BS... Let the players decide things, not a few cloistered stuffed-shirts.

You are correct, I don't like the process, but I'm resigned to the fact that it is what it is. What you don't seem to understand is that DIII post seasons procedures are mandated for all sports. Unlike DI where there is a level of autonomy, no such autonomy exists.

Recent changes in the selection and seeding process for hockey have taken place because of legislation that has affected every DIII team sport. Changing it requires that the mavens of all the sports agree on a joint procedure. Within that framework, there are things that can be done - the committee could voluntarily act in a more transparent manner. They could agree to use pre-determined weights in using the mandated criteria. Those things are in the hands of the sport

The process can change at the global level, and there are proposals. There is a proposal circulating that would change (in all sports) regional alignment and reduce the number of ranked teams. This same proposal would also allow all games with DIII teams to count as part of the primary criteria, instead of allowing only in-region games to count, but require that teams play 70% of their games in region in order to be considered for post-season play. Changes happen, but hockey-only changes won't happen
 
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Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

You are correct, I don't like the process, but I'm resigned to the fact that it is what it is... Within that framework, there are things that can be done - the committee could voluntarily act in a more transparent manner...

There is no arguing, it is what it is, but I am what I am I am, and I will never agree to let the king masquerade naked - particularly in ANY public forum. I recognize and acknowledge that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so sometimes there is legitimacy in sacrificial lambs. That said, I maintain there is NO WAY in the name of good sportsmanship for a quasi-public enterprise to operate a significant and deciding component of the national championship selection process in secret - no matter how controversial the consequences of what may be necessary decisions might become. Bottom line, I am willing to say it is what it is in that the best practical selection might not be the best possible selection, but CAN NOT agree that the selection process should be allowed to get by on - it is what it is.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I was just reading this, and found this quote from former Plattsburgh State Assistant Men's Coach and current Women's Head Coach, Kevin Houle worth noting:

"I'm not exactly sure how the process works but I know the tournament committee prefers to stay away from conference match-ups," Houle said.

"I'm not exactly sure how the process works" - says it all and says too much :(
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I have nothing more to add to this discussion but I do have a couple of questions. When will there be a college hockey video game, and why doesn't Bob Emery shake hands?
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I just figured since we were beating dead horses I would bring two of the more popular ones back into the discussion.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I do not have anything to add to this either but I really wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to shed light on this process.

It makes a helluva (sorry, can I say helluva?) lot more sense than it did a few days ago. I just didn’t want to be someone who whines and cries about what happens on selection Sunday. An understanding is crucial.

You can tell I say very little (9 posts in 2 years) because people like those here are far more intelligent and I would learn nothing submitting posts about something I know little about.

I sincerely wish good luck to your teams. It is finally Saturday and more playoff hockey is on tap.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

You are correct, I don't like the process, but I'm resigned to the fact that it is what it is. What you don't seem to understand is that DIII post seasons procedures are mandated for all sports. Unlike DI where there is a level of autonomy, no such autonomy exists.

Recent changes in the selection and seeding process for hockey have taken place because of legislation that has affected every DIII team sport. Changing it requires that the mavens of all the sports agree on a joint procedure. Within that framework, there are things that can be done - the committee could voluntarily act in a more transparent manner. They could agree to use pre-determined weights in using the mandated criteria. Those things are in the hands of the sport

The process can change at the global level, and there are proposals. There is a proposal circulating that would change (in all sports) regional alignment and reduce the number of ranked teams. This same proposal would also allow all games with DIII teams to count as part of the primary criteria, instead of allowing only in-region games to count, but require that teams play 70% of their games in region in order to be considered for post-season play. Changes happen, but hockey-only changes won't happen

I appreciate your comments; you probably know more about the Byzantine logic of D-3 than anyone else on this entire board, and your input is invaluable in trying to figure out the mess that is D-3 hockey.

Having said that with all sincerity, I'm sure that things can be changed to make a little more sense, and rather easily.


I can't imagine a lawsuit being filed as result of a more equitable system being installed via, say, a 2-hour teleconference, for instance... Non-hockey schools need not weigh-in, and I'm pretty sure that no one outside of our tiny fan-base would care at all about the proceedings. My guess is that there is no money to be made at any level of any D-3 sport, and ergo, The Sacred Charter, should it be invoked, would likely be found to be less than binding in any legal sense.

As an aside, my cousin is tenured at an over-priced private college in Vermont. He is absolutely as verbose as any of the worst of his ilk, but he once made a knowing statement to me: "Never underestimate the professorial ego."

The way D-3 plays with hockey looks to me like a trickle-up example of that same sort of thing. One would think that every effort would be put forth by these 'right-thinking' institutions to create a fair system, yet they hide behind expediency/lousy traditions, and God-knows-what-else instead, for whatever obscure reasons they have.

The situation is ironic, but devoid of humor. D-3 would be forced by public opinion to get it more nearly right, if hockey was anything more than their secret little plaything.
 
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Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

I appreciate your comments; you probably know more about the Byzantine logic of D-3 than anyone else on this entire board, and your input is invaluable in trying to figure out the mess that is D-3 hockey.

Having said that with all sincerity, I'm sure that things can be changed to make a little more sense, and rather easily.


I can't imagine a lawsuit being filed as result of a more equitable system being installed via, say, a 2-hour teleconference, for instance... Non-hockey schools need not weigh-in, and I'm pretty sure that no one outside of our tiny fan-base would care at all about the proceedings. My guess is that there is no money to be made at any level of any D-3 sport, and ergo, The Sacred Charter, should it be invoked, would likely be found to be less than binding in any legal sense.

As an aside, my cousin is tenured at an over-priced private college in Vermont. He is absolutely as verbose as any of the worst of his ilk, but he once made a knowing statement to me: "Never underestimate the professorial ego."

The way D-3 plays with hockey looks to me like a trickle-up example of that same sort of thing. One would think that every effort would be put forth by these 'right-thinking' institutions to create a fair system, yet they hide behind expediency/lousy traditions, and God-knows-what-else instead, for whatever obscure reasons they have.

The situation is ironic, but devoid of humor. D-3 would be forced by public opinion to get it more nearly right, if hockey was anything more than their secret little plaything.

+1

Never underestimate the professorial ego - EGO is the root of all evil and money is part of the scoring.

As for "there is no money to be made at any level of any D-3", this is true with a couple of caveats - 1) Some make money, those egotists who "work" in D3 (note everyone who works in D3, just those who are there to feed their egos) and 2) sometimes "loss minimization" IS money to be made (so said Ben Franklin).
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

In all serioisness Fish what do you want to change? On the Monday after selection Sunday we are now listening to all the complaining on the BBall front...imagine that.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

In all serioisness Fish what do you want to change? On the Monday after selection Sunday we are now listening to all the complaining on the BBall front...imagine that.

The bloated DI basketball field is an example of what happens when the field gets exp anded. Since the purpose of the tournament is to determine a national champion, the only teams that should be crying are those that have a legitimate chance at the title, and the field goes way beyond that. If there are 35 (or so, I don't know, and don't really care the exact number) at large berths, the team that is number 36 shouldn't be complaining - there is no way that they should be competing for a national championship.
 
The bloated DI basketball field is an example of what happens when the field gets exp anded. Since the purpose of the tournament is to determine a national champion, the only teams that should be crying are those that have a legitimate chance at the title, and the field goes way beyond that. If there are 35 (or so, I don't know, and don't really care the exact number) at large berths, the team that is number 36 shouldn't be complaining - there is no way that they should be competing for a national championship.

Oh I agree. My point was that
A. Its not just DIII hockey who have issues
B. Basketball doesn't use a "set in stone" ranking either
C. Just like many of us, you don't make your picks on what you think but what you think the committe will do.
D. There are smoke filled rooms in EVERY sport at EVERY level. Deal with it. Id much rather have a little wiggle room so we don't have the Adrian factor (not saying they wernt good just the whole go undefeated vs DIV teams)

In a perfect world all 60+ teams would play each other home and away and the playoffs would be a 16 team system with 3 game series....not gonna happen.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

Oh I agree. My point was that
A. Its not just DIII hockey who have issues
B. Basketball doesn't use a "set in stone" ranking either
C. Just like many of us, you don't make your picks on what you think but what you think the committe will do.
D. There are smoke filled rooms in EVERY sport at EVERY level. Deal with it. Id much rather have a little wiggle room so we don't have the Adrian factor (not saying they wernt good just the whole go undefeated vs DIV teams)

In a perfect world all 60+ teams would play each other home and away and the playoffs would be a 16 team system with 3 game series....not gonna happen.

Both you & NUProf have all good points, but I have a problem with the unconscionable final "Secret Ranking" - I subscribe to the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few - i.e. I can accept there is a rational need to weigh the fairness of the "ideal solution" with the "most practicle solution". That said, if it is fair than it need NOT be a secret, there is SIMPLY no need for childish activity by a quasi-public entity. The NCAA Championship selection process is not and should not be viewed as the secret game plans between a coach and their team, the demands of Good Sportmanship - demand transparency.
 
Both you & NUProf have all good points, but I have a problem with the unconscionable final "Secret Ranking" - I subscribe to the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few - i.e. I can accept there is a rational need to weigh the fairness of the "ideal solution" with the "most practicle solution". That said, if it is fair than it need NOT be a secret, there is SIMPLY no need for childish activity by a quasi-public entity. The NCAA Championship selection process is not and should not be viewed as the secret game plans between a coach and their team, the demands of Good Sportmanship - demand transparency.

On Monday morning does it matter who was the 8th Eastern team or 5th Western team? Or who was 10th? Its pretty easy to look at the numbers and figure things out. Is it childish? Or is it a who the heck really cares. The first out is first out. Doesn't matter if you're team A or team B. All putting the final ranking out does is allow people to ***** and complain more and more. Having listened and talked with former committee members and watching "selection Sunday" for years there havn't been too many surprises once you understand
A. How the committee works
B. How the process works

Its like some people want/need a full 40 page report on why they selected Team A and not Team B or why Team C got left out when
frankly it doesn't matter. There are enough hockey knowledged people on here to know why. There are arguements during selection sunday conference call all the time just like on here as to why and why not.

Again my point is it happens in EVERY sport in EVERY league. I've been listening to ESPN all morning as to why Iona got in. Why Washington didn't. Just like in hockey, there are reason/arguements for and against...and this is a year where the "experts" say they comm. got it right.
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

Again my point is it happens in EVERY sport in EVERY league. I've been listening to ESPN all morning as to why Iona got in. Why Washington didn't. Just like in hockey, there are reason/arguements for and against...and this is a year where the "experts" say they comm. got it right.

As for college basketball it is a silly, silly argument. Washington was not going to be national champion - maybe they show how good they are by winning the NIT - if they don't then they definitely deserved to be left out.

The reason that interest is down in regular season DI BB is because the games don't really matter individually. If you do well enough overall, you will get considered for the Bloatfest. One reason why DIII hockey regular season is so riveting is because individual games do matter. I think a more transparent process would be better, but in the end, if you have 3 Pool C bids, whoever ends up as the fourth Pool C bid is going to have an argument that they could have gone instead. It is true that if there were just criteria and they were applied, we wouldn't have this argument. I mean nobody argues that the selection committee got it wrong when they picked Tampa Bay as the AL Wildcard instead of Boston - the criteria were cut and dried. I think that is norm's point. If we all know the criteria and how they are weighted, nobody can cry "conspiracy, smoke filled room, etc."
 
Re: Tournament Speculation Thread

On Monday morning does it matter who was the 8th Eastern team or 5th Western team? Or who was 10th? Its pretty easy to look at the numbers and figure things out. Is it childish? Or is it a who the heck really cares. The first out is first out. Doesn't matter if you're team A or team B. All putting the final ranking out does is allow people to ***** and complain more and more. Having listened and talked with former committee members and watching "selection Sunday" for years there havn't been too many surprises once you understand
A. How the committee works
B. How the process works

Its like some people want/need a full 40 page report on why they selected Team A and not Team B or why Team C got left out when
frankly it doesn't matter. There are enough hockey knowledged people on here to know why. There are arguements during selection sunday conference call all the time just like on here as to why and why not.

Again my point is it happens in EVERY sport in EVERY league. I've been listening to ESPN all morning as to why Iona got in. Why Washington didn't. Just like in hockey, there are reason/arguements for and against...and this is a year where the "experts" say they comm. got it right.

It appearently matters enough, that the supposed experts find it necessary to keep it a secret. A lack of transparancy - especially when it shouldn't matter can serve only one purpose - to create and foster distrust. This, IMO, is big deal simply because it is blatant, is done by people who "claim" to promote good sportsmanship - and who should know better. A solution is so simple, they post the previous weeks, simply post the last one - if what they did is fair/equitable the justification should be apparent and in any event they will have proved they have nothing to hide.
 
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