The States: Where We Wish Texas Would Secede Already

[St. Clown]

Oh, OK, I get it. I had no idea he was a Hometown Boy. That's different.

I looked him up. His HS was actually named "Cretin." I imagine that leads to much HS tomfoolery.

Cretin-Durham Hall, it's a liberal Catholic sports high school. They put out Joe Mauer, too.

 

[Kepler]

You clearly do not understand Vikings fans. Mick Tingelhoff is in the Vikings Ring of Honor. Superstar Mike Morris became a host on the most popular sports jock radio station in the Twin Cities, and he wasn't even a full time center, just a long snapper.

You picked the wrong fight against the wrong group of fans.

No, no, no, I was not picking a fight. I just did not realize that Vikings : Minneapolis :: Redskins : DC.

I assumed Minny was hockey country, period.

For the record I like the Vikes. Have ever since this young fella:

Excluding fandom, here are the most interesting NFL franchises:

 1. Oakland
 2. Minnesota
 3. Baltimore (Colts)
 4. Washington
 5. Pittsburgh
 6. Dallas
 7. Miami
 8. Denver
 9. LA Rams
10. Cleveland
11. Detroit
12. San Diego
13. Houston (Oilers)
14. St. Louis (Cardinals)

 

[Handyman]

No, no, no, I was not picking a fight. I just did not realize that Vikings : Minneapolis :: Redskins : DC.

I assumed Minny was hockey country, period.

For the record I like the Vikes. Have ever since this young fella:

Excluding fandom, here are the most interesting NFL franchises:

 1. Oakland
2. Minnesota
3. Baltimore (Colts)
4. Washington
5. Pittsburgh
6. Dallas
7. Miami
8. Denver
9. LA Rams
10. Cleveland
11. Detroit
12. San Diego
13. Houston (Oilers)
14. St. Louis (Cardinals)

Minnesota is hockey loving...but it is still niche beyond belief. The Vikings own this town. Nothing comes close...

(and hockey will never be as big as hockey fans pretend it is around here outside of the HS Hockey Tournament)

 

[Handyman]

He does not live in St. Paul currently, rather one of its nearby southern suburbs along 35E. His neighborhood has a history of paying a company every year to put up a very elaborate series of Xmas light displays, but not all home owners participate in that tradition. I don't recall if he does or not, but his house is notable because it's the only one where the family car is a nicely appointed, small bus. One thing for which he absolutely does hold an admirable trait is that he's used a good chunk of his money to adopt a number of children from struggling backgrounds, across a number of different races. Friends of mine are trying to adopt currently, it's about a $50k process.

As I said when he was ripped for going to the Trump rally...he does a lot of good work that deserves praise. Problem is a lot of people do and they arent COVID Hoaxers like the Big Red Headed Buffoon.

 

[Kepler]

Minnesota is hockey loving...but it is still niche beyond belief. The Vikings own this town. Nothing comes close...

(and hockey will never be as big as hockey fans pretend it is around here outside of the HS Hockey Tournament)

I'm very surprised. I guess because my only contact with MN / WI / MI / ND has been through hockey. I thought the entire region was South Manitoba.

 

[St. Clown]

I'm very surprised. I guess because my only contact with MN / WI / MI / ND has been through hockey. I thought the entire region was South Manitoba.

The farther north you travel, the more that's true. However, since hockey is an expensive sport a lot of parents shy away from having their children play it. That said, in the early 2000's, you could have the Wild, Gophers, and two or three other WCHA schools in the state all with sellout arenas, along with some of the hockey-oriented high schools packed to the rafters. I'd say that Big10 Hockey has hurt the interest in the college game within the state. Thanks, Wisconsin.

 

[Handyman]

The farther north you travel, the more that's true. However, since hockey is an expensive sport a lot of parents shy away from having their children play it. That said, in the early 2000's, you could have the Wild, Gophers, and two or three other WCHA schools in the state all with sellout arenas, along with some of the hockey-oriented high schools packed to the rafters. I'd say that Big10 Hockey has hurt the interest in the college game within the state. Thanks, Wisconsin.

That isnt exactly true. Plenty of schools were having issues with fans showing up before the Big Ten started. A couple years before the Big Ten I went to a game between the Gophers and SCCC at the Concrete Bunker and it was pick your row night. Even 5 years before that I would have been SRO if I was lucky. Greed and in reality the niche level of the sport really killed it. Even a bunch of the old posters around here who were SCCC season ticket holders had stopped going by then.

The U overcharged based on demand (because the Stars left) and other schools overcharged to pay off their athletic budget. The Final Five paid for the WCHA but it was mostly Gopher fans buying the tickets and that got old. (especially after the Gophers missed it twice) The Big Ten was just the final nail.

And even with all of that...a Vikings scrimmage would get better ratings than a massive Gopher game I would bet back then. I remember when a dude from Fox Sports would post on GPL (cause everyone there whines and complains) and basically explained how little the ratings were and how little money they actually made. Dude from Big Ten did the same thing. College Hockey was only profitable for the schools, and you can't trust them to not kill the Golden Goose. (which they did)

Hockey is bigger here than most places...but honestly it would be at best 3rd in line and honestly as much as it annoys people if we had a decent college basketball or NBA team they would probably beat hockey as well.

 

[St. Clown]

That isnt exactly true. Plenty of schools were having issues with fans showing up before the Big Ten started. A couple years before the Big Ten I went to a game between the Gophers and SCCC at the Concrete Bunker and it was pick your row night. Even 5 years before that I would have been SRO if I was lucky. Greed and in reality the niche level of the sport really killed it. Even a bunch of the old posters around here who were SCCC season ticket holders had stopped going by then.

The U overcharged based on demand (because the Stars left) and other schools overcharged to pay off their athletic budget. The Final Five paid for the WCHA but it was mostly Gopher fans buying the tickets and that got old. (especially after the Gophers missed it twice) The Big Ten was just the final nail.

And even with all of that...a Vikings scrimmage would get better ratings than a massive Gopher game I would bet back then. I remember when a dude from Fox Sports would post on GPL (cause everyone there whines and complains) and basically explained how little the ratings were and how little money they actually made. Dude from Big Ten did the same thing. College Hockey was only profitable for the schools, and you can't trust them to not kill the Golden Goose. (which they did)

Hockey is bigger here than most places...but honestly it would be at best 3rd in line and honestly as much as it annoys people if we had a decent college basketball or NBA team they would probably beat hockey as well.

I didn't mean to say that it was the HUGE thing, only that it was once bigger.

And yes, attendance has declined at SCSU. The AD made changes to how students could participate in their various cheers in the stands, and prices shot up disproportionate to inflation rates, and that has left the school with a half-empty arena except for when UND or UMD come to town.

In regards to the Gophers playing there, that series took a big hit once Lucia et al made it known during the waning years of the old WCHA that they didn't want to play SCSU four times each season. Rivalries live through continuous, competitive play. Husky fans lost interest in the Golden Rodents shortly after Lucia lost interest in losing to SCSU so much.

 

[Handyman]

I didn't mean to say that it was the HUGE thing, only that it was once bigger.

And yes, attendance has declined at SCSU. The AD made changes to how students could participate in their various cheers in the stands, and prices shot up disproportionate to inflation rates, and that has left the school with a half-empty arena except for when UND or UMD come to town.

In regards to the Gophers playing there, that series took a big hit once Lucia et al made it known during the waning years of the old WCHA that they didn't want to play SCSU four times each season. Rivalries live through continuous, competitive play. Husky fans lost interest in the Golden Rodents shortly after Lucia lost interest in losing to SCSU so much.

Husky fans never lost interest in anything but the Huskies. (and sobriety) But tell yourself whatever helps sooth the pain of another first round loss ;^)

And Lucia had problems with the entire setup of the WCHA not just playing the Huskies. (let alone losing to them...hey remember the last WCHA Title ;^) ) The rivalries suffered because there was too many ****ed teams and they all relied on the Gophers/Sconnie and to a lesser extent UND to make their budget. (UND realized how annoying that was which is why they didnt stay in the WCHA and formed the Nacho) It was tough enough when there was 10 teams but when it jumped to 12 there was no way to keep all the rivalries alive and make a schedule that worked. Old Pio went on rants back in the day around here about how if the Gophers or Wisconsin didn't come to town their budget was in trouble. The WCHA needed to split...but no team (even the Gophers) wanted to give up the games that mattered most and that left the door open to the Big Ten (thanks Wisconsin!) to blow up the whole world.

 

[Kepler]

Why is everybody blaming the BTHC on Wisconsin? I thought there was a trigger in the conference rules when you hit the magic number, so when Pegula splooged that was it?

Blame the conference for admitting Pedo State in 93. Was Wisco the deciding vote or something?

 

[French Rage]

Why is everybody blaming the BTHC on Wisconsin? I thought there was a trigger in the conference rules when you hit the magic number, so when Pegula splooged that was it?

Blame the conference for admitting Pedo State in 93. Was Wisco the deciding vote or something?

I figured they all wanted it. Other B1G schools are more recognizable to fair-weather fans that they want to pull in than whatever a Bemidji State is supposed to be.

 

[St. Clown]

Why is everybody blaming the BTHC on Wisconsin? I thought there was a trigger in the conference rules when you hit the magic number, so when Pegula splooged that was it?

Blame the conference for admitting Pedo State in 93. Was Wisco the deciding vote or something?

Barry Alvarez, the former UW football coach, became their AD. He pushed Pedo State U's moneyed backers to make hockey a varsity sport in order to get some more Big10 Network cash. He didn't like the WCHA, is my understanding. Once PSU turned varsity, it forced the Big 10 member schools to join the BTHC as PSU was the sixth BT school to form a team.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Second, #2 = provincialism?

Locality (though that typically refers more to a specific county or city)

 

[Kepler]

Locality (though that typically refers more to a specific county or city)

I like this. It's a little smaller scale than I was thinking but, sure.

 

[Kepler]

Barry Alvarez, the former UW football coach, became their AD. He pushed Pedo State U's moneyed backers to make hockey a varsity sport in order to get some more Big10 Network cash. He didn't like the WCHA, is my understanding. Once PSU turned varsity, it forced the Big 10 member schools to join the BTHC as PSU was the sixth BT school to form a team.

OK I get it. Not sure that's really on Wisco, tho. Just some d-ck who used to be at Wisco. Like blaming the 49ers dynasty on Cornell.

 

[Handyman]

Barry Alvarez, the former UW football coach, became their AD. He pushed Pedo State U's moneyed backers to make hockey a varsity sport in order to get some more Big10 Network cash. He didn't like the WCHA, is my understanding. Once PSU turned varsity, it forced the Big 10 member schools to join the BTHC as PSU was the sixth BT school to form a team.

This is only partially true.

First there was no "trigger" or "provision". The Big Ten said to make a conference you needed six teams. If six teams existed they wanted you to form the conference but you didn't HAVE to. That is why there was a vote about it. Barry Alvarez and Red Berenson wanted the BTHC the most. Red hated playing the Michigan schools so much and Barry thought Wisconsin and Minnesota carried too much of the burden to keep the WCHA afloat financially. (not to mention they had the best TV contracts) Once Pedo State moved their team up and the CCHA denied them entry (IIRC) Barry moved to have the BTHC become a thing. He had Red's support obviously and Michigan State and tOSU weren't staying in the CCHA without Michigan. Minnesota voted AGAINST the BTHC but in reality their vote didn't matter cause it was 5-1. They hated the idea but weren't going to screw over the Big Ten...they have zero clout. They were basically Mitt Romney voting for Trump's removal...ceremonial at best.

Now this could have been avoided but the truth is there was too many teams and not enough leagues. This was discussed at length in the mid 2000s on the hockey side here and other places. The CCHA and the WCHA were above max capacity and schools were looking to add teams. There was no room. Even worse a lot of those smaller schools needed to play the Big Ten schools to balance their budgets. This creates even bigger problems. Since college hockey wasn't going to expand the schedule it meant either dropping out of conference games to expand the conference schedule (which would make the PWR even worse than it already was) or finding some sort of schedule that could accommodate everyone. Neither was a realistic option.

Realignment was needed badly but none of the schools wanted it because rivalries were what was keeping the niche sport popular. Expansion was impossible because if another Minnesota school wanted to add they had no where to go and no realistic chance to play the Gophers or Wisconsin for the foreseeable future. Rumors had been circulating of a Big Ten school joining for years and never happening so no one took it seriously. Then Pedo State did and the stubbornness of the schools bit them in the butt. With no realignment coming the BTHC became a thing. Then NoDak decided they didn't want to be the Big Dog either and they pulled everyone they could together and formed their league. The rest of the WCHA/CCHA was left to rot.

If a third "Western" league had been allowed to form none of this happens.

 

[Handyman]

OK I get it. Not sure that's really on Wisco, tho. Just some d-ck who used to be at Wisco. Like blaming the 49ers dynasty on Cornell.

No he was the AD at Wisconsin and had major clout in the Big Ten. To use the 49ers analogy, we are blaming the post Super Bowl terrible years on the stupid contracts signed by Eddie Debartolo Jr.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

The farther north you travel, the more that's true. However, since hockey is an expensive sport a lot of parents shy away from having their children play it. That said, in the early 2000's, you could have the Wild, Gophers, and two or three other WCHA schools in the state all with sellout arenas, along with some of the hockey-oriented high schools packed to the rafters. I'd say that Big10 Hockey has hurt the interest in the college game within the state. Thanks, Wisconsin.

Yep. Ultimately a Television Station destroyed College Hockey forever. If the Big 10 Network had never happened, never been a success, and never mistakenly thought it needed "hockey" for content it likely never would have happened.

Handy brings up the big conference problem but that all could have been solved with divisions within the conferences IMO.

 

[Jimjamesak]

This is only partially true.

First there was no "trigger" or "provision". The Big Ten said to make a conference you needed six teams. If six teams existed they wanted you to form the conference but you didn't HAVE to. That is why there was a vote about it. Barry Alvarez and Red Berenson wanted the BTHC the most. Red hated playing the Michigan schools so much and Barry thought Wisconsin and Minnesota carried too much of the burden to keep the WCHA afloat financially. (not to mention they had the best TV contracts) Once Pedo State moved their team up and the CCHA denied them entry (IIRC) Barry moved to have the BTHC become a thing. He had Red's support obviously and Michigan State and tOSU weren't staying in the CCHA without Michigan. Minnesota voted AGAINST the BTHC but in reality their vote didn't matter cause it was 5-1. They hated the idea but weren't going to screw over the Big Ten...they have zero clout. They were basically Mitt Romney voting for Trump's removal...ceremonial at best.

Now this could have been avoided but the truth is there was too many teams and not enough leagues. This was discussed at length in the mid 2000s on the hockey side here and other places. The CCHA and the WCHA were above max capacity and schools were looking to add teams. There was no room. Even worse a lot of those smaller schools needed to play the Big Ten schools to balance their budgets. This creates even bigger problems. Since college hockey wasn't going to expand the schedule it meant either dropping out of conference games to expand the conference schedule (which would make the PWR even worse than it already was) or finding some sort of schedule that could accommodate everyone. Neither was a realistic option.

Realignment was needed badly but none of the schools wanted it because rivalries were what was keeping the niche sport popular. Expansion was impossible because if another Minnesota school wanted to add they had no where to go and no realistic chance to play the Gophers or Wisconsin for the foreseeable future. Rumors had been circulating of a Big Ten school joining for years and never happening so no one took it seriously. Then Pedo State did and the stubbornness of the schools bit them in the butt. With no realignment coming the BTHC became a thing. Then NoDak decided they didn't want to be the Big Dog either and they pulled everyone they could together and formed their league. The rest of the WCHA/CCHA was left to rot.

If a third "Western" league had been allowed to form none of this happens.

I don’t think we get away from any of the problems if there was a third league. At least one of them would’ve been without an Alaska team and that would’ve made the other two unhappy. Also, someone would be without the B1G schools and their money. Not to mention the issues with Huntsville and ASU.

It was a delicate balance that finally got tipped. Things probably could’ve stabilized after the BTHC but DU and UND panicked and it all went to hell from there.

 

[Kepler]

If a third "Western" league had been allowed to form none of this happens.

Wouldn't it have happened anyway once Pedo State elevated? Or are you saying a third conference would have given MN, WI, OSU, MSU, and NoDak and say 3 small fry a comfortable enough gig that they would never have formed a BTHC?