The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

[aparch]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

I believe other states are contemplating the same thing. It is definitely outside the box thinking.

It's not an inherently bad idea. Electric and hybrid vehicles still use roads and bridges. They gotta be paid for somehow.

I think the ham-handedness of this proposal is what irks me the most. Find new and creative ways to generate income? Sure. Basically saying "Oh, we're going to charge you $450 a year in taxes, but you gotta prove you should pay less," when they can't even afford to send out emissions testing notices or even the farking vehicle renewal notices currently, there are some problems.

The other issue I have is that the Illinois Tollway receives ZERO gas tax funding for their projects. This new tax would also tax me for driving and using the Illinois Tollway, of which I already am paying for the privilege of using; thus a double tax.


The GPS and odometer tracking is ludicrous. I'm not the tinfoil hat wearing type at all, but if the State of Illinois can track my car for "tax" purposes, what's going to prevent insurance companies from now tapping into that data? Police surveillance? There is a LOT of data that could be used for nefarious purposes, and this bill is standing on the top of that slippery slope.

 

[aparch]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

We don't have annual vehicle inspections here. In order to implement such a tax here the state would need to spend quite a lot of money. And it would infuriate the populace here because it would be a new time burden as well as financial burden.

Illinois, err, Chicagoland and the Illinois side of St. Louis Metro already have emissions testing, but it's free to the driver. Emissions testing starts when the car turns four years old (2012 vehicles require testing this year), and then testing is required every two years after that. Mileage is recorded, (but not accurately, they round up. to the nearest thousand, or ten thousand if they're really lazy) and then you're sent on your way and allowed to renew your license plates.


Honestly, I'd be more in favor of raising the annual cost of license plates $50 or $100 AND that the Illinois DOT and Illinois Tollway seriously look into congestion tolling in the Chicagoland region versus some blanket $450 tax or fight to reduce it.

 

[joecct]

Illinois, err, Chicagoland and the Illinois side of St. Louis Metro already have emissions testing, but it's free to the driver. Emissions testing starts when the car turns four years old (2012 vehicles require testing this year), and then testing is required every two years after that. Mileage is recorded, (but not accurately, they round up. to the nearest thousand, or ten thousand if they're really lazy) and then you're sent on your way and allowed to renew your license plates.


Honestly, I'd be more in favor of raising the annual cost of license plates $50 or $100 AND that the Illinois DOT and Illinois Tollway seriously look into congestion tolling in the Chicagoland region versus some blanket $450 tax or fight to reduce it.

Move to Maryland. They did everything regarding cars.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Besides, that tracking garbage would be so complicated that it will cost a fortune to administer.

...and I'm not channeling Flag here, but it's a proposal I find effing creepy. Of course, thanks to my travel, and my mobile phone/credit card records, I'm sure Uncle Sam knows my approximate location anyway (as does my employer if they decide to look - hooray MDM!). That said, it's the principle of the thing. Uncle Sam does not need to pinpoint my location at the Walmart off Exit 1 in Texarkana, unless they have a warrant and I've potentially committed a legitimate crime.

Nah. Every time I go to the emissions or inspection station, they record the mileage. They then send me the bill. If I sell the car in the interim, the mileage is recorded on the title. They send me the bill.

So the mileage piece is already a thing in Maryland beyond semi-trucks?

 

[joecct]

...So the mileage piece is already a thing in Maryland beyond semi-trucks?

No (not yet). The nefarious imagination of Annapolis is somewhat in check until another D governor sits in the State House.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

No (not yet). The nefarious imagination of Annapolis is somewhat in check until another D governor sits in the State House.

But you said they have stations to inspect you, and then they send you a bill...? Or is it based on some sort of complicated emissions calculation, rather than the absolute mileage?

 

[joecct]

But you said they have stations to inspect you, and then they send you a bill...? Or is it based on some sort of complicated emissions calculation, rather than the absolute mileage?

A way to do it. We have emission inspections here. It would be a simple step to record the mileage each time the vehicle is tested.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Here's the other problem I have with it. It's entirely regressive. It puts an undue burden on the middle and lower classes. That's not how you improve the state.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

It's a terrible idea. Just keep raising the gas tax until there's enough market demand that real public transportation gets built.

This. It's a user fee but it's non-intrusive. It will also make local produce cost effective, which will cut down on the mileage driven to haul in wherever Whole Foods gets their organic free range kale.

Kill the internal combustion engine, save the world.

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Here's the other problem I have with it. It's entirely regressive. It puts an undue burden on the middle and lower classes. That's not how you improve the state.

Wait, I'm not following this. How is it more burdensome to the middle and lower class than the status quo?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Wait, I'm not following this. How is more burdensome to the middle and lower class than the status quo?

Well, any flat fee is regressive -- it eats a higher percentage of the resources of the poor. But I'm not sure how the status quo is funded. If it's from the general fund then a progressive tax structure means the poor are impacted less than those with fat checks.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Well, any flat fee is regressive -- it eats a higher percentage of the resources of the poor. But I'm not sure how the status quo is funded. If it's from the general fund then a progressive tax structure means the poor are impacted less than those with fat checks.

The status quo is a funny mixture in this state, where dx, GrinCDXX and I all call home. We have a gas tax, which is essentially a sales tax as you know, but by a foolish 2008 amendment to our state constitution, a percentage of our state's gas tax is spent upon mass transit and bike paths rather than maintaining roads and bridges. It's tough to call out an exact breakdown because the law was written such that no less than 40%(?) of the money collected be diverted to mass transit, but it has no theoretical ceiling. In addition to that, the state keeps talking about funding our roads and bridges out of the general fund now rather than simply using the gas tax for that purpose and then funding mass transit from the general fund.

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Well, any flat fee is regressive -- it eats a higher percentage of the resources of the poor. But I'm not sure how the status quo is funded. If it's from the general fund then a progressive tax structure means the poor are impacted less than those with fat checks.

It seems to me that the flat fee per gallon model (the status quo) must be shifting the tax burden down the income ladder since it's the wealthy who can afford super fuel efficient vehicles. Ignoring all its potential problems, the flat fee per mile model would at least reverse that regression, no?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

It seems to me that the flat fee per gallon model (the status quo) must be shifting the tax burden down the income ladder since it's the wealthy who can afford super fuel efficient vehicles. Ignoring all its potential problems, the flat fee per mile model would at least reverse that regression, no?

Poor people, who aren't complete morons, tend to drive old, small, fuel efficient vehicles because they're in their price range. Rich people buy large, fuel efficient vehicles that cost a lot up front, pay large vehicle excise taxes, higher annual tab fees, and then they will often have the large SUV that gets 8 MPG. Meanwhile, the blue collar guy who's in the middle, will often drive a work truck, or pickup truck of some sort that's not running at 35MPG or the 8MPG, and tend to get hit the hardest by the per-gallon or per-mile tax.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Poor people, who aren't complete morons, tend to drive old, small, fuel efficient vehicles because they're in their price range.

Not to mention that the urban poor often don't own a car at all and use mass transit. Gas taxes would have to go up a lot to impact the price of a bus ticket.

 

[unofan]

Not to mention that the urban poor often don't own a car at all and use mass transit. Gas taxes would have to go up a lot to impact the price of a bus ticket.

Ok, but if you don't own a car, you're not paying a mileage tax, either.

I don't see how a mileage tax is inherently worse than the current gas tax model. Obviously, the specifics of its implementation would matter a lot, but whether you're charging by the gallon or the mile, is still a use tax one way or the other.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

Ok, but if you don't own a car, you're not paying a mileage tax, either.

I don't see how a mileage tax is inherently worse than the current gas tax model. Obviously, the specifics of its implementation would matter a lot, but whether you're charging by the gallon or the mile, is still a use tax one way or the other.

It's far more expensive to administer a mileage tax than it is a gas tax. You don't need special assessor stations setup to administer a gas tax, but you would in order to administer a mileage tax. So, if you go in with the assumption (probably false) that this change from gas to mileage in the tax basis is to be revenue neutral, there would need to be an evaluation period to calculate how many assessor stations would be needed, where they would be located, how much they would cost to operate, and some period of time to see firsthand experience of how many miles are actually driven by your state's citizens. All of this just to know at what that rate the tax should be set.

Unless you went with a "trust but verify" model, where people would pay their tax on self-reported miles driven in a given year, or a DB with odometer values. You could even establish an agency model, much like we do now with sales tax, but these are all inherently flawed models and much more expensive to operate than a simple gas tax, which can be assessed and collected through the refineries.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

but these are all inherently flawed models and much more expensive to operate than a simple gas tax, which can be assessed and collected through the refineries.

Plus, somebody with a fuel efficient car will wind up with the same tax as the microphallic a-hole with the F-250 if they drive the same distance.

 

[unofan]

Plus, somebody with a fuel efficient car will wind up with the same tax as the microphallic a-hole with the F-250 if they drive the same distance.

That's part of the point, though, since electric cars currently don't pay anything towards the general highway fund.

But also, you were claiming it'd have to be more regressive than the present system. I still don't see that as an automatic assumption.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: Mad Scientist Laboratories of Democracy

That's part of the point, though, since electric cars currently don't pay anything towards the general highway fund.

But also, you were claiming it'd have to be more regressive than the present system. I still don't see that as an automatic assumption.

On 1, then we should also charge for tare*, cargo weight, width of tire, etc, since those factor into road wear. It's really laden trucks that destroy the roads.

On 2, yeah I know, I gave it my best shot below.

* I just wanted to use "tare" correctly, once in my life, in appropriate context.