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The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

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ScoobyDoo said:
Good luck beating the right with that. All they have to do to get elected is avoid Roy Moore, and Todd Akin. We have to avoid career politicians because we have government as much as the Republicans do? Oh, wait.
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Those guys are the modern Republican Party though so that’s probably not happening.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

trixR4kids said:
And then when he loses don’t blame the voters like an idiot. Blame the fact that you keep trying the same thing over and over and acting confused when it doesn’t work for the 4th time since 2000.

Why do you keep enabling horrible candidates during the primary with no plan to help the average person that lose to half wits with a double digit IQ in the general election? That’s the better question.
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You do realize that you have to abide by the results of the primaries right? As in, if your candidate goes through and doesn't win, don't act like a toddler in a sandbox if fellow Dems choose somebody else. That's the problem you and Kep have. Its the sense that either you get your way or you go home, instead of contributing to the greater good. So, I'm happy to separate Sanders the senator from his supporters, but several million of you actively voted FOR Trump and put him in the White House. Now you want the rest of the party to fall in line behind your sabotage? Ummm..not sure how old you are, but life kinda doesn't work that way? That's why Little Ralphie Nader squandered any good will he once had and is now widely known as a laughingstock.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Rover said:
You do realize that you have to abide by the results of the primaries right? As in, if your candidate goes through and doesn't win, don't act like a toddler in a sandbox if fellow Dems choose somebody else. That's the problem you and Kep have. Its the sense that either you get your way or you go home, instead of contributing to the greater good. So, I'm happy to separate Sanders the senator from his supporters, but several million of you actively voted FOR Trump and put him in the White House. Now you want the rest of the party to fall in line behind your sabotage? Ummm..not sure how old you are, but life kinda doesn't work that way? That's why Little Ralphie Nader squandered any good will he once had and is now widely known as a laughingstock.
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It doesn't matter. You'll never convince them and they certainly will not convince us. The Democrats will continue as a lost organization for perpetuity and the Republicans will continue as they have forever because of it. It's a stalemate and it's one in which Democrats lose.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Kepler said:
This is just you spouting a talking point the right has put into your head that has no relation to reality. If you were capable of independent thought -- of thought at all -- you might escape this bullsh-t. But I'll say this for the focus group theoreticians -- boy have they got your number. So keep regurgitating this stuff back while we keep circling the drain. Keep letting them push your buttons and for goodness' sake don't ever for a moment question that maybe you are being deliberately sliced and diced apart from potential allies because they know how to activate your cultural resentments and your hurt feewies.
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My cultural resentments that they're activating? Exactly what would those be? I've stated on here numerous times, I support gay marriage. I think abortion should be an issue of choice for the woman. My position on immigration, which I've posted here multiple times, is probably as liberal as any person in this country. My view is that if you want to move here, welcome. You have to obey our laws, pay taxes, and do everything else the rest of us do. You don't get to vote or get the privileges of citizenship unless you actually go through the process of becoming a citizen, but you're certainly free to apply. Immigration is simply nature telling people to move to a place with a better standard of living, and it's immoral to try to impede that with laws.

So exactly how, again, is the right activating my cultural buttons?

I've always viewed all politicians as people looking only for power for themselves and the ability to line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends. Nothing I've seen over my lifetime has changed that opinion.

But the thing I've found about Republican candidates, for the most part, is they'll tell you exactly how they're going to try to seize that power and steal from me. I also understand that they won't be able to steal everything because someone will oppose the most egregious of the thefts simply for political reasons and the chance to gain power and line their own pockets. I've trusted the Courts to impede their cultural attacks.

The problem I've found with most Democratic candidates is I really have no idea what I'm getting. I could get a Paul Wellstone who does exactly what he says he'll do. Or I'll get someone who will pander to the 99%, then spend their years in office claiming the reason they haven't actually done what they promised to do is because they've been obstructed every step of the way.

I always choose the devil I know over the one I don't.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

SJHovey said:
Immigration is simply nature telling people to move to a place with a better standard of living, and it's immoral to try to impede that with laws.
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I'm a flaming liberal, but I'm going to break with many on the left here: I'm okay with limiting immigration.

Unlike Trump and the righties, I'm _not_ okay with limiting it based on someone's country of origin, religion, color of their skin, etc. I'm okay with limiting it based on whether or not they provide some skill that our economy needs.

I would like our country to be more like Canada or a European country in terms of healthcare, maternity and paternity leave, public transportation spending, education, social safety net,etc.
Because of its universal Healthcare and generous social benefits, Canada has a pretty strict immigration system. They have some quotas for refugees etc, but it's generally a points based system. You get points for being younger, points for being skilled/educated, points for speaking English and French. Basically, they want people that are going to contribute the most before becoming a drain on the healthcare system.

We need a certain number of "unskilled" workers, but younger is better because they'll pay into social security and medicare longer. We need more engineers, scientists, doctors, nurses. But from an environmental point of view, I wish we could get to an economy that functions well with zero or slightly negative population growth.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

We're not producing enough kids. We need immigrants just to maintain the labor force. And if we do it smart they pay taxes. Win-Win.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

BassAle said:
I'm a flaming liberal, but I'm going to break with many on the left here: I'm okay with limiting immigration.

Unlike Trump and the righties, I'm _not_ okay with limiting it based on someone's country of origin, religion, color of their skin, etc. I'm okay with limiting it based on whether or not they provide some skill that our economy needs.

I would like our country to be more like Canada or a European country in terms of healthcare, maternity and paternity leave, public transportation spending, education, social safety net,etc.
Because of its universal Healthcare and generous social benefits, Canada has a pretty strict immigration system. They have some quotas for refugees etc, but it's generally a points based system. You get points for being younger, points for being skilled/educated, points for speaking English and French. Basically, they want people that are going to contribute the most before becoming a drain on the healthcare system.

We need a certain number of "unskilled" workers, but younger is better because they'll pay into social security and medicare longer. We need more engineers, scientists, doctors, nurses. But from an environmental point of view, I wish we could get to an economy that functions well with zero or slightly negative population growth.
Click to expand...

I have a similar view. I'd rather not see my party become known for unfettered immigration for anybody who wants to cross the border. While I sympathize greatly with the reason why many illegals make the trek to the US, we also need everyone to go through a much more orderly process. I'm all for taking care of the Dreamers of course as they didn't choose to come here. For everyone else we need a process for determining who gets to stay and who doesn't but there is no guarantee you'll get to stay even if you don't have a criminal record.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Rover said:
You do realize that you have to abide by the results of the primaries right? As in, if your candidate goes through and doesn't win, don't act like a toddler in a sandbox if fellow Dems choose somebody else. That's the problem you and Kep have. Its the sense that either you get your way or you go home, instead of contributing to the greater good. So, I'm happy to separate Sanders the senator from his supporters, but several million of you actively voted FOR Trump and put him in the White House. Now you want the rest of the party to fall in line behind your sabotage? Ummm..not sure how old you are, but life kinda doesn't work that way? That's why Little Ralphie Nader squandered any good will he once had and is now widely known as a laughingstock.
Click to expand...
Nowhere did I say I won't vote for the lesser of two evils, I'd rather Hillary win and the SC gets tilted in the other direction, trust me.

But I also realize that people who have known nothing but generational poverty (i.e. the black voters who dems expect to turn out but then do absolutely nothing for) probably aren't going to go out of their way to vote based on that. I find it funny how you act like Bernie needed to do more to get black votes but then supported the candidate who was going to do absolutely nothing for them and were surprised when they didn't turn out and act like the black voters are lazy and stupid. Hmmm....
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

trixR4kids said:
Nowhere did I say I won't vote for the lesser of two evils, I'd rather Hillary win and the SC gets tilted in the other direction, trust me.

But I also realize that people who have known nothing but generational poverty (i.e. the black voters who dems expect to turn out but then do absolutely nothing for) probably aren't going to go out of their way to vote based on that. I find it funny how you act like Bernie needed to do more to get black votes but then supported the candidate who was going to do absolutely nothing for them and were surprised when they didn't turn out and act like the black voters are lazy and stupid. Hmmm....
Click to expand...

The sentence I highlighted is the key point here. There are lots of programs to try and help, in your particular example, black voters to escape generational poverty. In fact some do. What you tend to overlook is what will happen once Republicans seize total control of the government. What will happen is existing programs will be gutted to pay for tax cuts for the rich and in these particular times racism will be back in vogue. That's the lesson I feel far lefties never learn - they consistently underestimate the depravity of the right and sit back and let them obtain power. Once in power, they will make the lives of these people more miserable whenever they can, because they aren't wealthy GOP donors. With Dems in office, even Joe Manchin, you have a chance at affecting these policies and improving them. With total GOP control, they all get obliterated as we're seeing now. I'm not sure why that notion never seems to resonate the Republicans are pretty much doing exactly what they said they would. People too stupid to recognize that deserve to take it in the shorts. I'm done trying to save people from themselves.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Rover said:
The sentence I highlighted is the key point here. There are lots of programs to try and help, in your particular example, black voters to escape generational poverty. In fact some do. What you tend to overlook is what will happen once Republicans seize total control of the government. What will happen is existing programs will be gutted to pay for tax cuts for the rich and in these particular times racism will be back in vogue. That's the lesson I feel far lefties never learn - they consistently underestimate the depravity of the right and sit back and let them obtain power. Once in power, they will make the lives of these people more miserable whenever they can, because they aren't wealthy GOP donors. With Dems in office, even Joe Manchin, you have a chance at affecting these policies and improving them. With total GOP control, they all get obliterated as we're seeing now. I'm not sure why that notion never seems to resonate the Republicans are pretty much doing exactly what they said they would. People too stupid to recognize that deserve to take it in the shorts. I'm done trying to save people from themselves.
Click to expand...

Democrats are all or nothing voters. Republicans are not. Advantage? Republicans.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

SJHovey said:
My cultural resentments that they're activating? Exactly what would those be? I've stated on here numerous times, I support gay marriage. I think abortion should be an issue of choice for the woman. My position on immigration, which I've posted here multiple times, is probably as liberal as any person in this country. My view is that if you want to move here, welcome. You have to obey our laws, pay taxes, and do everything else the rest of us do. You don't get to vote or get the privileges of citizenship unless you actually go through the process of becoming a citizen, but you're certainly free to apply. Immigration is simply nature telling people to move to a place with a better standard of living, and it's immoral to try to impede that with laws.

So exactly how, again, is the right activating my cultural buttons?

I've always viewed all politicians as people looking only for power for themselves and the ability to line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends. Nothing I've seen over my lifetime has changed that opinion.

But the thing I've found about Republican candidates, for the most part, is they'll tell you exactly how they're going to try to seize that power and steal from me. I also understand that they won't be able to steal everything because someone will oppose the most egregious of the thefts simply for political reasons and the chance to gain power and line their own pockets. I've trusted the Courts to impede their cultural attacks.

The problem I've found with most Democratic candidates is I really have no idea what I'm getting. I could get a Paul Wellstone who does exactly what he says he'll do. Or I'll get someone who will pander to the 99%, then spend their years in office claiming the reason they haven't actually done what they promised to do is because they've been obstructed every step of the way.

I always choose the devil I know over the one I don't.
Click to expand...

I just wanted you to know I got a good Friday afternoon chuckle out of you hunched over your little keyboard pecking out all 342 words, firm in the belief that a trite cliche like BSABSVR qualifies as original, intelligent thought.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Rover said:
The sentence I highlighted is the key point here. There are lots of programs to try and help, in your particular example, black voters to escape generational poverty. In fact some do. What you tend to overlook is what will happen once Republicans seize total control of the government. What will happen is existing programs will be gutted to pay for tax cuts for the rich and in these particular times racism will be back in vogue. That's the lesson I feel far lefties never learn - they consistently underestimate the depravity of the right and sit back and let them obtain power. Once in power, they will make the lives of these people more miserable whenever they can, because they aren't wealthy GOP donors. With Dems in office, even Joe Manchin, you have a chance at affecting these policies and improving them. With total GOP control, they all get obliterated as we're seeing now. I'm not sure why that notion never seems to resonate the Republicans are pretty much doing exactly what they said they would. People too stupid to recognize that deserve to take it in the shorts. I'm done trying to save people from themselves.
Click to expand...
So the Republicans are getting rid of social programs that help the vulnerable just like Bill Clinton did? Manchin would do what exactly, bring some of those programs back with means testing or some other compromise that does nothing to move the needle? Maaaaaybe not gut those programs further until the incompetent dems try to forge a deal with Republicans? If we're lucky we might even get a $10 minimum wage!

I mean yeah, Manchin would be the lesser of two evils in this scenario and like I said I'd obviously vote for him since it'd mean no more Trump. But at some point you need a competent Dem party that aggressively pushes us back in the other direction rather than just implementing some half measure while trying to compromise with lunatics who have no interest in helping anyone other than the Koch brothers/Mercers. Just shouting lesser of two evils to horribly disenfranchised potential voters probably isn't a viable strategy.
 
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Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

ScoobyDoo said:
Democrats are all or nothing voters. Republicans are not. Advantage? Republicans.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Tell a college-aged liberal that the Supreme Court is at stake, and they'll go, "Screw that, what about my student loans and legalizing green?!?!" Tell any conservative the Supreme Court is at stake, and they'll ask you when and where to show up at the polls because we can't be having any more of those "librul judges leguslatin' from duh bench!"
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

trixR4kids said:
Nowhere did I say I won't vote for the lesser of two evils, I'd rather Hillary win and the SC gets tilted in the other direction, trust me.

But I also realize that people who have known nothing but generational poverty (i.e. the black voters who dems expect to turn out but then do absolutely nothing for) probably aren't going to go out of their way to vote based on that. I find it funny how you act like Bernie needed to do more to get black votes but then supported the candidate who was going to do absolutely nothing for them and were surprised when they didn't turn out and act like the black voters are lazy and stupid. Hmmm....
Click to expand...

Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves. This isnt a Poli-Sci class he choices people make have real world repercussions.

A couple years back Real Time had Tom Morello on to speak about some protests he was part of. Morello of course is one of the best musicians around, Harvard educated and a political activist icon. Morello went on a rant about how the parties are the same and how the Dems shouldnt follow Hillary cause she will screw the system and that we need real change and we can only do that by either not voting or voting against the parties. Crowd of course goes nuts. Maher, who loves Morello BTW, flat out disagrees with him. Tom seems a bit taken a back (remember at the time Maher had spent years trying to get Bernie to run so he isnt exactly a Hillary backer) and continues. Maher basically tells Morello how it is easy for him to say that nothing changes and to vote conscience not logic but that for the average person (one who didnt go to Harvard and has made a lot of money in music) those beliefs are dangerous. Morello disagrees. Maher brings up how in Florida they had two bad candidates running for office. Many of the Left stayed home so the GOP candidate won. That candidate helped gut their Medicare/Medicaid and destroyed other social programs. (might havebeen the guy who wanted all Welfare recipients to take drug tests as well) Those people that stayed home out of disgust for the two party system ended up screwing themselves.

tl;dr: Yeah in theory it makes sense for the disenfranchised to stay home, but in practice you are only guaranteeing you are going to take it in the jaw when the chips are down. And you lose any right to complain about the system.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves.
Click to expand...
No not really, they've turned out in the past and continuously received nothing for their efforts, that's the problem. The party just keeps taking their vote for granted while delivering nothing.

And I'm pretty sure I saw that clip. I think Tom is right in some areas but not the part where he tells people not to vote, that part is stupid and dangerous. I'm not advocating that the disenfranchised don't vote I just understand why it happens and that the strategy needs to reflect that.
 
Re: The States: Doing Their Own Thing...

Handyman said:
Well no offense trix but then they have no one to blame for their current plight than themselves. This isnt a Poli-Sci class he choices people make have real world repercussions.

A couple years back Real Time had Tom Morello on to speak about some protests he was part of. Morello of course is one of the best musicians around, Harvard educated and a political activist icon. Morello went on a rant about how the parties are the same and how the Dems shouldnt follow Hillary cause she will screw the system and that we need real change and we can only do that by either not voting or voting against the parties. Crowd of course goes nuts. Maher, who loves Morello BTW, flat out disagrees with him. Tom seems a bit taken a back (remember at the time Maher had spent years trying to get Bernie to run so he isnt exactly a Hillary backer) and continues. Maher basically tells Morello how it is easy for him to say that nothing changes and to vote conscience not logic but that for the average person (one who didnt go to Harvard and has made a lot of money in music) those beliefs are dangerous. Morello disagrees. Maher brings up how in Florida they had two bad candidates running for office. Many of the Left stayed home so the GOP candidate won. That candidate helped gut their Medicare/Medicaid and destroyed other social programs. (might havebeen the guy who wanted all Welfare recipients to take drug tests as well) Those people that stayed home out of disgust for the two party system ended up screwing themselves.

tl;dr: Yeah in theory it makes sense for the disenfranchised to stay home, but in practice you are only guaranteeing you are going to take it in the jaw when the chips are down. And you lose any right to complain about the system.
Click to expand...

Yup. Astounding how people (mostly Bernie voters but not all) just don't get it. If Dems are in power, you the liberal activist has a chance to influence how they manage these programs. You may not improve them all, but you may improve some of them.

If the GOP is in power, you will not be influencing how these programs are managed because they will be ELIMINATED!!! So the choice is between possibly changing how the govt cares for people vs the govt doing jack for everyone but the 1%. Again, if you're too stupid to figure this out at this point and continue to underestimate how low the GOP will go, you get what you deserve.
 
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