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The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Aaaaah, yes, it's the Clinton's fault. Always is.

Hey, you only cross Bernie once. Once! After that, you're forever on the The List! :D

Kep's lunacy aside, the Clintons have nothing to do with the Dems withering down ballot during Obama's time. That's arguably the stupidest thing Kep has ever written out here but to his credit he kept the misogyny out of his comments for once on this subject. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately for as good a President that he was Obama's huge failing was thinking he was, or he could be, above partisan politics. The writing was on the wall when he turfed Howard Dean, by far the best Dem strategist of a generation, for idiots like Rahm Emmanuel and Tom Daschle. Emmanuel's been a failure pretty much in any job he's ever had, while Daschle was arguably the worst Dem Senate leader in the last half century.

At the same time, big money interests who got tired of bankrolling intellectual heavyweights :eek: like Gingrich, Lott, Dole, Hastert, Dubya and McCain in order to push their interests realized correctly that if they instead put zillions of dollars and organization into down ballot races, they could then use that to redraw lines, get favorable judicial rulings, and basically cement in right wing control of key states for eons and with that Congress. Meanwhile the battle wasn't joined as Dems completely failed to join the battle - ALL Dems, from the mods to the far lefties and everyone in between.

What short circuited that was the same underestimation that we all made, which was that 99.9% of conservative Republicans are certified racists who traffic in KKK type ideology. Far from promoting benevolent plute loving country club types who feigned right on social issues, in reality Koch Bros have gotten wiped out by the Louis Goehmert / Mark Meadows wing of the party - complete and total nutcases who can't be controlled but due to the very gerrymandering the plutes bankrolled are now sitting in insurmountable districts. Obviously this is all manifested in Trump. Educated voters, the ones who were thought to be packed into safely red suburban districts revolted, and now we have a Dem house plus state house gains about 4 years earlier than anybody expected.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

It would have been interesting to call their bluff. That was the moment to kill the 1%, no question. They were wide open and exposed. Would we have killed ourselves along with them? I dunno. But at some point you have to ask yourself: what price freedom?

Someday when we are truly a democracy there will be books written about whether that was a missed opportunity or just an unpleasant but unavoidable death rattle of the old regime. It may have been similar to 1848 for the aristos: a narrow escape but already the writing is on the wall. And even at that, they still had less than 70 years and counting.

Yes we would have destroyed ourselves. 23 Trillion is nothing compared to what would have disappeared worldwide if the Dems hadnt worked with Paulsen to fix things. The 1%ers would have survived anyways. You know who wouldnt have...everyone else. Even with a bailout the fallout from all the banks biting the dust would have been horrific. Every 401k gone. IRAs obliterated. Pension funds no longer existing. People who cant afford it would lose their savings in a blink of an eye and there is no way the Fed would be able to pay back on all the insured money lost. There would be "Hovervilles" in every town, suburb and hamlet across the country.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Nice write-up. I don't think the average or even above average person knows just how bad it was. Any books or references you recommend reading?

I would read anything by Andrew Ross Sorkin (especially Too Big To Fail which HBO made a movie out of) they are pretty solid. I keep meaning to read The Big Short as well. Lots of articles over the years that sadly I never kept a list of. I will see if the GF's parents have any suggestions her Dad taught Micro and Macro for 15 years and both were bankers for decades. I honestly hated economics until I started talking about it with them.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

I would read anything by Andrew Ross Sorkin (especially Too Big To Fail which HBO made a movie out of) they are pretty solid. I keep meaning to read The Big Short as well. Lots of articles over the years that sadly I never kept a list of. I will see if the GF's parents have any suggestions her tad taught Micro and Macro for 15 years and both were bankers for decades. I honestly hated economics until I started talking about it with them.

I wish I had been an econ major back in the day and actually finished college when I was supposed to finish. Much better track than what I have/do now.
 
I would read anything by Andrew Ross Sorkin (especially Too Big To Fail which HBO made a movie out of) they are pretty solid. I keep meaning to read The Big Short as well. Lots of articles over the years that sadly I never kept a list of. I will see if the GF's parents have any suggestions her Dad taught Micro and Macro for 15 years and both were bankers for decades. I honestly hated economics until I started talking about it with them.
Too Big To Fail was a good movie
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Except bailing out the home owners would not have staved off the Depression. Even if the Government had used TARP to buy up every bad or underwater loan credit would have seized up. Originally that was one of the proposals and it would have taken too long to for the effects to be felt. Multiple banks would have crashed and AIG probably does as well. (which would have triggered a Dow/NASDAQ crash that would have been catastrophic)It would've helped a lot of people affected by the banks' horrible decision making which was completely outside their control.

The only way to stop the Depression was to bail out the banks and they were literally hours away from the crash when they got approval. The banks only accepted (no bank wants a bailout it makes them look weak compared to the competition) under the idea that they had no strings with the cash. The Government had no choice but to agree and the banks basically used the money to pay compensation or just have it sit in the vault making their bottom line look better.

If there had been more time the second half of TARP was supposed to give funds to homeowners once the banks were stable.

Treasury and the Fed made every mistake possible (along with 2 administrations) and created a bubble so big allowing it to burst completely not only would have crashed our economy but banks in England, China and Russia would have crashed and burned with it. It would have made the collapse of Bear Stearns look a twenty year old who is overdrawn on their account and rent is do. Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Citi AIG and Lehman would have been dead within a month. The more I have studied it since then (because back then I had a much different opinion) the more I realized how truly awful it was.

(not arguing with you, just explaining why there wasnt time to include the second half that you are correct needed to be part of all this)
Well from what I've read they put infinitely more focus into the banks than homeowners, which as you noted, given the size of the problem with the banks they had to focus on that first I get it. But the problem was they didn't do a good job on the homeowner part of the equation and in some cases that program (HAMP) enabled the foreclosure of homes in a lot of cases due to its terrible implementation and follow through (incentivizing loan servicers to modify loans rather than just providing direct relief to underwater home owners) and the 75 billion that was allocated to helping homeowners mostly didn't get used (only about 15 was used as of 2016). Instead the loan servicers tricked people into foreclosing or didn't modify loan conditions and got away with it.

I guess my point is, considering how much attention and money was poured into the banks they could've at least spent a minimal amount of time, money, and effort on the problems facing homeowners because of the banks. Instead they sorta just hoped they could persuade the free market entities to solve the problem.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Yes we would have destroyed ourselves. 23 Trillion is nothing compared to what would have disappeared worldwide if the Dems hadnt worked with Paulsen to fix things. The 1%ers would have survived anyways. You know who wouldnt have...everyone else. Even with a bailout the fallout from all the banks biting the dust would have been horrific. Every 401k gone. IRAs obliterated. Pension funds no longer existing. People who cant afford it would lose their savings in a blink of an eye and there is no way the Fed would be able to pay back on all the insured money lost. There would be "Hovervilles" in every town, suburb and hamlet across the country.

All fair points, but I have read nothing to refute the contention that bailing out the banks just means they will do it to us again, and even worse.

Why not just give the $23T directly to the people and let the banks and the bankers all die?
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

I think you're all romanticizing the people who took out these mortgages a bit too much. The greed of the average borrower is what turned it into an unprecedented crisis.

I can think of two examples: The Big Short was a good movie and got a lot of things right. One part of it was when Michael Scott went down to Florida to see who those two dorky mortgage brokers were writing NINJA loans to (no income no job). Strippers and other people had like 5 mortgages. The govt was under no obligation to bail people like that out.

I also remember a great NPR piece where the reporters bought a toxic asset, named in "toxey", and started contacting the mortgage holders who made up the securitized debt instrument. It was about 30 defaulted loans and again mostly from Florida. One woman lost her job so understandable. Another guy was a wannabe real estate tycoon who took out a dozen mortgages with no capital behind it and was under indictment for fraud by the state. The only person to agree to be interviewed was a 70 something year old guy who took out a mortgage to buy a 2nd home on the beach. When the property went underwater (figuratively speaking) he stopped paying and explained it that since already owned his house and car outright he didn't care about his credit being ruined. These people also don't deserve to be bailed out.

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to take out a loan that you couldn't afford. If somebody fudged your loan application without your knowledge, okay. But, if you wanted to live in Bill Gates' neighborhood while making 30K a year and figured you'd just borrow to make up the difference, sorry but I have no sympathy. IMHO most crappy mortgages were people "withdrawing equity" from their house or other irresponsible BS.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Yeah the homeowners are just as much at fault as the financial institutions that engaged in numerous illegal acts and destroyed our economy. Both sides. Thanks Brent.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to take out a loan that you couldn't afford. If somebody fudged your loan application without your knowledge, okay. But, if you wanted to live in Bill Gates' neighborhood while making 30K a year and figured you'd just borrow to make up the difference, sorry but I have no sympathy. IMHO most crappy mortgages were people "withdrawing equity" from their house or other irresponsible BS.

Bull. Everybody who supposedly "knew better" was ladling it out 24/7 that this was a surefire way to get rich and nothing bad would happen. The watchdogs looked the other way, the financiers were grossly irresponsible and lied to these people to sucker them in.

It's as if every doctor told every smoker everything was fine and cigarettes were harmless and now afterwards you say "well, nobody forced them to smoke." No. F-ck that. The fault is with the people who were supposed know what they were doing and who lied and cheated to line their own pockets and in so doing ruined millions of people. And who themselves got off scott free.

The entire financial industry and all its criminals can DIAF. Nationalize finance as a public utility and be done with it.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

At the end of the day, nobody forced you to take out a loan that you couldn't afford.
Leaves out the part where these financial advisers were telling people that these were good assets that would appreciate in value and that it was a wise financial decision for these people (that they knew couldn't afford it).

Anyone who blames the financial crisis mostly on homeowners is a complete moron or a disingenuous troll who works for one of these institutions and wants to deflect culpability for the crisis.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Bull. Everybody who supposedly "knew better" was ladling it out 24/7 that this was a surefire way to get rich and nothing bad would happen. The watchdogs looked the other way, the financiers were grossly irresponsible and lied to these people to sucker them in.

It's as if every doctor told every smoker everything was fine and cigarettes were harmless and now afterwards you say "well, nobody forced them to smoke." No. F-ck that. The fault is with the people who were supposed know what they were doing and who lied and cheated to line their own pockets and in so doing ruined millions of people. And who themselves got off scott free.

The entire financial industry and all its criminals can DIAF. Nationalize finance as a public utility and be done with it.

Except it would take 12 seconds of research to know that what these schmucks were peddling wasnt going to work. If someone had no money and got a loan with an adjustable rate and they didnt do the due diligence to even research what that meant (and lets be fair most didnt) I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. It is like all the kids when I was at school who signed up for a bunch of credit cards. Sure they shouldnt have been targeted but if you are a student with no income you shouldnt be signing up for the card anyways let alone maxing it out.

Now any banker or mortgage lender who was giving out loans on McMansions to people with low credit and no downpayment should not only have been fired but faced all sorts of repercussions, but there has to be some form of personal responsibility here. You cant reward stupid behavior. In reality the banks should have been forced to re-adjust the ARMs down and given the owners more time to make good after the increase. That would have saved their butts AND kept the loans active. By then though the banks were making more money on the loans failing than they were on the payments so they had no reason to.

Everyone was acting wrong back then. No one was thinking.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Obviously there are some people who take advantage of any system (and maybe some of them would've gotten assistance under a better HAMP) but acting like they were the norm during a housing crisis that affected millions is Rush/Hannity levels of stupidity.
 
Yes we would have destroyed ourselves. 23 Trillion is nothing compared to what would have disappeared worldwide if the Dems hadnt worked with Paulsen to fix things. The 1%ers would have survived anyways. You know who wouldnt have...everyone else. Even with a bailout the fallout from all the banks biting the dust would have been horrific. Every 401k gone. IRAs obliterated. Pension funds no longer existing. People who cant afford it would lose their savings in a blink of an eye and there is no way the Fed would be able to pay back on all the insured money lost. There would be "Hovervilles" in every town, suburb and hamlet across the country.

Obviously never read up on MMT :)

Just fire up the presses :D
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

You know I can understand her point (she is wrong and stupid but I can at least understand it) but you know what I cant understand...how so many people can just not know what Communism actually is. It isnt like it some vague notion only known by academics a 5 second google search will give you a fundamental understanding of what the term means. I guearantee that nimrod had to look up the spelling of "sovereign" so she knows how to do it.

I do have to ask though...how is "our God Sovereign"?

I feel bad her kid had issues, and I understand that she believes it was caused by a vaccine. The rest of the people dont get to suffer just because you are too stupid to realize that science knows more than you do.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Except it would take 12 seconds of research to know that what these schmucks were peddling wasnt going to work. If someone had no money and got a loan with an adjustable rate and they didnt do the due diligence to even research what that meant (and lets be fair most didnt) I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. It is like all the kids when I was at school who signed up for a bunch of credit cards. Sure they shouldnt have been targeted but if you are a student with no income you shouldnt be signing up for the card anyways let alone maxing it out.

Now any banker or mortgage lender who was giving out loans on McMansions to people with low credit and no downpayment should not only have been fired but faced all sorts of repercussions, but there has to be some form of personal responsibility here. You cant reward stupid behavior. In reality the banks should have been forced to re-adjust the ARMs down and given the owners more time to make good after the increase. That would have saved their butts AND kept the loans active. By then though the banks were making more money on the loans failing than they were on the payments so they had no reason to.

Everyone was acting wrong back then. No one was thinking.

Yup. trix is like the guy who blames the govt (most likely corporate Dems which is anybody to the right of Sanders) because he got scammed by that Nigerian prince who promised him a million bucks if he'd just wire over a grand to get his gold out of customs. :D At some point, you yourself need the horse sense to not get scammed. Con artists have existed since the dawn of time. Get educated and you won't get screwed usually.

I applied for a mortgage in 2006. As a then two income family, I was approved for like 900K, no sh it. I told my lender "thank you, but I'm not looking to buy a house for that kind of money". Now either I'm way smarter than 99% of the population (probably true, but I want to see Kep admit it :D) or people needed to exercise a lot better due diligence.

Somebody show me where people were forced to borrow more than they could afford. Kep, trix, etc. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Go!
 
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