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The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
Obama's "mistake" was being black.
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No, that's a big reason why a lot of the MAGA chuds hate him obviously but it's also not why we lost however many state legislatures and the house/senate.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

trixR4kids said:
No, that's a big reason why a lot of the MAGA chuds hate him obviously but it's also not why we lost however many state legislatures and the house/senate.
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I don't know why we got reamed out in the down ballot races (although NC-15 makes you wonder...), but I have a hard time pinning it on Bams. Yeah, he got a lot of racists out of the woodwork to vote straight ticket Republican, but he also got a lot of Dems off their butts, too.

I suspect it comes down to the intellectual fecklessness of the DNC and the rather large Clintonista contingent who have infested it for the last two decades. They didn't spend any time doing anything that didn't directly benefit Her Majesty, and their grossness repelled a lot of good people who would otherwise have joined the party and worked for us.

One of the best things about the breath of fresh air blowing in the Democratic base now is that it ought to gradually fumigate the national Democratic apparatus. Throw Chelsea down a well and we should be rid of them by 2024, latest.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
I suspect it comes down to the intellectual fecklessness of the DNC and the rather large Clintonista contingent who have infested it for the last two decades. They didn't spend any time doing anything that didn't directly benefit Her Majesty, and their grossness repelled a lot of good people who would otherwise have joined the party and worked for us.
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His rhetoric certainly differentiated himself from the Clintons but in policy he didn't really diverge all that much. He ran on fixing the economy and making things more equitable but in the end you still had all the same fundamental problems in the economy of the 1% and wage stagnation, inequality grew, black wealth got even smaller as the ones who did own homes got hit harder by the financial crisis (and the response was a handout to financial institutions), and monopolies got larger some of which he helped approve.

Unsurprisingly when the material conditions of people didn't change and they saw no help coming some of them identified with the racist guy or were desperate enough to believe his faux populist rhetoric.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

trixR4kids said:
His rhetoric certainly differentiated himself from the Clintons but in policy he didn't really diverge all that much. He ran on fixing the economy and making things more equitable but in the end you still had all the same fundamental problems in the economy of the 1% and wage stagnation, inequality grew, black wealth got even smaller as the ones who did own homes got hit harder by the financial crisis (and the response was a handout to financial institutions), and monopolies got larger some of which he helped approve.
Click to expand...

But I wouldn't lay that at his door as a failure. His first 2 years were about putting out the tire fire of the Dubya Depression, and after that he had a Congress of saboteurs and terrorists.

Obama didn't throw away his shot. It was wasted by bad timing and the temporary triumph of the stupidest and most hateful people in the country, who have now had their apotheosis with Dump.

Hopefully an idealist (and fiscally leftist) liberal following Dump will have the opportunity to see real change through, as demography begins to disembowel the Dumpies.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
But I wouldn't lay that at his door as a failure. His first 2 years were about putting out the tire fire of the Dubya Depression, and after that he had a Congress of saboteurs and terrorists.
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Right but how he went about doing that is what lead to the next 6 years, they aren't entirely unrelated as some would have you believe.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
I don't know why we got reamed out in the down ballot races (although NC-15 makes you wonder...), but I have a hard time pinning it on Bams. Yeah, he got a lot of racists out of the woodwork to vote straight ticket Republican, but he also got a lot of Dems off their butts, too.

I suspect it comes down to the intellectual fecklessness of the DNC and the rather large Clintonista contingent who have infested it for the last two decades. They didn't spend any time doing anything that didn't directly benefit Her Majesty, and their grossness repelled a lot of good people who would otherwise have joined the party and worked for us.

One of the best things about the breath of fresh air blowing in the Democratic base now is that it ought to gradually fumigate the national Democratic apparatus. Throw Chelsea down a well and we should be rid of them by 2024, latest.
Click to expand...


Aaaaah, yes, it's the Clinton's fault. Always is.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
But I wouldn't lay that at his door as a failure. His first 2 years were about putting out the tire fire of the Dubya Depression, and after that he had a Congress of saboteurs and terrorists.

Obama didn't throw away his shot. It was wasted by bad timing and the temporary triumph of the stupidest and most hateful people in the country, who have now had their apotheosis with Dump.

Hopefully an idealist (and fiscally leftist) liberal following Dump will have the opportunity to see real change through, as demography begins to disembowel the Dumpies.
Click to expand...

I would add that Obama's administration came right into the headwind of aging babyboomers. I think he did as well as could be expected.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

trixR4kids said:
His rhetoric certainly differentiated himself from the Clintons but in policy he didn't really diverge all that much. He ran on fixing the economy and making things more equitable but in the end you still had all the same fundamental problems in the economy of the 1% and wage stagnation, inequality grew, black wealth got even smaller as the ones who did own homes got hit harder by the financial crisis (and the response was a handout to financial institutions), and monopolies got larger some of which he helped approve.

Unsurprisingly when the material conditions of people didn't change and they saw no help coming some of them identified with the racist guy or were desperate enough to believe his faux populist rhetoric.
Click to expand...

Just stop. ANyone who keeps parroting this line just doesn't understand the consequences or the imminent danger we were in.

If the federal government didn't bail out those institutions, as distasteful as it was, we could have seen a repeat of the Great Depression. The money supply would have seized up and we would have seen multiple banks go under. For the first time in history, money market funds broke the buck; we were already seeing the economic engine seize and liquidity drop. Furthermore, the government made money on almost every single "handout" they "handed out". Did you really want to play with the fire that comes with major financial institutions going under all at once?

Just because the banks ****ed up doesn't mean the government should cut off their nose.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Nobody is saying they shouldn't have bailed out the banks, I'm saying bailing out the homeowners who got shafted by the banks should've happened too. And you can disagree with the framing but that's effectively what happened.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

ScoobyDoo said:
Aaaaah, yes, it's the Clinton's fault. Always is.
Click to expand...

"Fault" may be strong. The Clintons have hung over Democratic national politics since 1992 like a beer fart. The initial buzz was great: Bill deserves full marks for wresting the White House from the Republicans, and he did a very good job as President given what he had to work with. He did allow much of the Reagan cement to set into concrete, but really none of us were thinking we could do much better at that time -- as dumb as the country is now it was a lot dumber back then, and we were just trying to survive the thuggery of the religious right.

A hero who lives long enough becomes a villain, and since 2000 the influence of the Clintons on the Democrats and the country at large has been mainly malodorous. It will be a good day when nobody who owes their allegiance back to the Little Rock Hillbillies occupies any position of prominence within the party.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

trixR4kids said:
Nobody is saying they shouldn't have bailed out the banks, I'm saying bailing out the homeowners who got shafted by the banks should've happened too. And you can disagree with the framing but that's effectively what happened.
Click to expand...

If you're going to give 23 trillion to the 1% you're not going to bail out the middle class when the 1%ers banks fail.

And you're right. Dems shouldn't have fallen for it.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

ScoobyDoo said:
And you're right. Dems shouldn't have fallen for it.
Click to expand...

It would have been interesting to call their bluff. That was the moment to kill the 1%, no question. They were wide open and exposed. Would we have killed ourselves along with them? I dunno. But at some point you have to ask yourself: what price freedom?

Someday when we are truly a democracy there will be books written about whether that was a missed opportunity or just an unpleasant but unavoidable death rattle of the old regime. It may have been similar to 1848 for the aristos: a narrow escape but already the writing is on the wall. And even at that, they still had less than 70 years and counting.
 
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Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

trixR4kids said:
Nobody is saying they shouldn't have bailed out the banks, I'm saying bailing out the homeowners who got shafted by the banks should've happened too. And you can disagree with the framing but that's effectively what happened.
Click to expand...

Except bailing out the home owners would not have staved off the Depression. Even if the Government had used TARP to buy up every bad or underwater loan credit would have seized up. Originally that was one of the proposals and it would have taken too long to for the effects to be felt. Multiple banks would have crashed and AIG probably does as well. (which would have triggered a Dow/NASDAQ crash that would have been catastrophic)

The only way to stop the Depression was to bail out the banks and they were literally hours away from the crash when they got approval. The banks only accepted (no bank wants a bailout it makes them look weak compared to the competition) under the idea that they had no strings with the cash. The Government had no choice but to agree and the banks basically used the money to pay compensation or just have it sit in the vault making their bottom line look better.

If there had been more time the second half of TARP was supposed to give funds to homeowners once the banks were stable.

Treasury and the Fed made every mistake possible (along with 2 administrations) and created a bubble so big allowing it to burst completely not only would have crashed our economy but banks in England, China and Russia would have crashed and burned with it. It would have made the collapse of Bear Stearns look a twenty year old who is overdrawn on their account and rent is do. Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Citi AIG and Lehman would have been dead within a month. The more I have studied it since then (because back then I had a much different opinion) the more I realized how truly awful it was.

(not arguing with you, just explaining why there wasnt time to include the second half that you are correct needed to be part of all this)
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Handyman said:
Except bailing out the home owners would not have staved off the Depression. Even if the Government had used TARP to buy up every bad or underwater loan credit would have seized up. Originally that was one of the proposals and it would have taken too long to for the effects to be felt. Multiple banks would have crashed and AIG probably does as well. (which would have triggered a Dow/NASDAQ crash that would have been catastrophic)

The only way to stop the Depression was to bail out the banks and they were literally hours away from the crash when they got approval. The banks only accepted (no bank wants a bailout it makes them look weak compared to the competition) under the idea that they had no strings with the cash. The Government had no choice but to agree and the banks basically used the money to pay compensation or just have it sit in the vault making their bottom line look better.

If there had been more time the second half of TARP was supposed to give funds to homeowners once the banks were stable.

Treasury and the Fed made every mistake possible (along with 2 administrations) and created a bubble so big allowing it to burst completely not only would have crashed our economy but banks in England, China and Russia would have crashed and burned with it. It would have made the collapse of Bear Stearns look a twenty year old who is overdrawn on their account and rent is do. Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Citi AIG and Lehman would have been dead within a month. The more I have studied it since then (because back then I had a much different opinion) the more I realized how truly awful it was.

(not arguing with you, just explaining why there wasnt time to include the second half that you are correct needed to be part of all this)
Click to expand...

Nice write-up. I don't think the average or even above average person knows just how bad it was. Any books or references you recommend reading?
 
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