The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

[gojackets]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

yeah. that amherst/GAC game to me to bed too

hmm how many drinks did you have prior to that statement??? Have you been drinking since Platty choked last weekend???


yes I can hear 420 in the back of my mind...pot...kettle...black

 

[Plugger]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Let's hpe GAC has a better outing today, and the score is a little closer. A 4 goal differential is quite a bit. Look at the NESCAC weekend, bar none best hockey of the season, with all games going into overtime. Kudos to Trinity doing back to back overtimes with their 4 overtime thriller over Middlebury in their first of two overtime games in less than 24 hours. Just shows you how tough NESCAC is.

IF GAC struggles again against a East team tday, it will be hard to talk about west being equal to the east. Let's hope GAC had an off day yesterday, because a close game would be good for women's hockey.

Also, hope we have an exciting Championship game as well.

 

[gojackets]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

GoJackets - You are not a villain, but now that we have been able to watch GAC, they do have talent, but not the depth that some of the eastern teams you referenced in your emails this year on ranking teams.

Look at all of the games between Platts, Elmira, Amherst, Middlebury and Trinity they were all close games, several ties, many one goal games (a few overtimes in that category) and a couple of 2 goal games (with a couple of empty netters in that category).

Familiarity does not play into this, what does play into this is the competitive nature of the teams that play out east.

You can easily justify that the top 3 maybe 4 teams in NESCAC, top 3 teams in the ECAC West and the top 2 teams in the ECAC East should be ranked above any of the West teams.

This year you got what you wanted, a Final 4 out west, and you were outscored 8-1. Looks to me like the West still has a ways to go. They are getting there (just like the east teams are doing at the DI level), it simply is not quite there yet.

Saying that, it does appear that there are some teams out west whose programs are growing and getting stronger and will have more depth. There is no reason to think they the top teams won't catch up to the east, they just are not there yet. That is all. I hope they do, as it will be great for women's hockey on a national basis.

I disagree in a lot of ways. I said a long time ago that I did not think the west was as good this year as they have been in the past. It was an off year out here, and I would think that if you have watched the west teams play in the final four the past few years...you'd probably agree with that.


Familiarity does play a role. No matter how good the teams are UWS/UWSP games are always hard fought battles. They want to beat that team with all their heart...and they are familiar with the style of play. I said before...I was interested in seeing how the Gustavus game plan would work against the better eastern teams. Clearly it didn't work very well. I would think if Gustavus played Amherst 4 times in a year, they wouldn't get beat 4-0 every time. It's hard to gauage the relative strenght of a team in a one game situation.


I will say I was wrong. The eastern teams were clearly better than the west teams this year.

 

[nyi19]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Familiarity does play a role. No matter how good the teams are UWS/UWSP games are always hard fought battles.

Is familiarity the reason Norwich beat Elmira? Or, rather, is lack of familiarity the reason Elmira lost to Norwich?

 

[Plugger]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I disagree in a lot of ways. I said a long time ago that I did not think the west was as good this year as they have been in the past. It was an off year out here, and I would think that if you have watched the west teams play in the final four the past few years...you'd probably agree with that.


Familiarity does play a role. No matter how good the teams are UWS/UWSP games are always hard fought battles. They want to beat that team with all their heart...and they are familiar with the style of play. I said before...I was interested in seeing how the Gustavus game plan would work against the better eastern teams. Clearly it didn't work very well. I would think if Gustavus played Amherst 4 times in a year, they wouldn't get beat 4-0 every time. It's hard to gauage the relative strenght of a team in a one game situation.


I will say I was wrong. The eastern teams were clearly better than the west teams this year.

To use your vernacular, I disagree in alot of ways. First of all, if you did not think the west was as good this year then you should have not pushed as many West teams in the top 10 as you did.

I would agree that the West was weaker this year, but how does UWRF have an off year, as they worked hard last year, and yes they too came in 4th last year, they put up a good fight, and they did not lose many (if any) players and got some new blood that should have helped them get even better.

As to familiarity, I do not agree that would have made a difference, as my belief is that no matter how familiar GAC would have been with any of their opponents this past weekend, they simply did not have the depth on bench to compete.

As to your UWS/UWSP they are fairly close in talent so I would expect to see a very competitive game. As I stated yesterday, all of the top teams that played each other this year, not once was there a 4 goal differential. That has to do with talent, not familiarity

I gues we can just agree to disagree, as I know it is not an easy pill to swallow, even knowing this year was an off year for the West. As I said, I would love to see hockey in the West get on even ground with the East. They are not far away, GAC tried very hard and put up a great effort, but if they could get a little more depth, I believe the results would have been closer.

This is not a criticism, it seems to be factual to me. It is just the opposite at DI and it would be great to see things change at both levels and have an even plane at both levels.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

To use your vernacular, I disagree in alot of ways. First of all, if you did not think the west was as good this year then you should have not pushed as many West teams in the top 10 as you did.

I would agree that the West was weaker this year, but how does UWRF have an off year, as they worked hard last year, and yes they too came in 4th last year, they put up a good fight, and they did not lose many (if any) players and got some new blood that should have helped them get even better.

As to familiarity, I do not agree that would have made a difference, as my belief is that no matter how familiar GAC would have been with any of their opponents this past weekend, they simply did not have the depth on bench to compete.

As to your UWS/UWSP they are fairly close in talent so I would expect to see a very competitive game. As I stated yesterday, all of the top teams that played each other this year, not once was there a 4 goal differential. That has to do with talent, not familiarity

I gues we can just agree to disagree, as I know it is not an easy pill to swallow, even knowing this year was an off year for the West. As I said, I would love to see hockey in the West get on even ground with the East. They are not far away, GAC tried very hard and put up a great effort, but if they could get a little more depth, I believe the results would have been closer.

This is not a criticism, it seems to be factual to me. It is just the opposite at DI and it would be great to see things change at both levels and have an even plane at both levels.

In my opinion, if teams like GAC continue to only recruit the vast majority of their players from "Minnesota - The State of Hockey", it will be years before they catch up. This isn't a slight on the State, it's hockey programs or the talent that can be found there. It seems obvious to me that until they broaden their horizons and boundaries from a recruiting standpoint the pool of talent will always be somewhat limited.

 

[spike]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Thank goodness, something to discuss to get us through the long hot summer and into next season!

I too agree with Plugger that balance in D-III would be good. However, I think there are foces at work that will always work against that balance. Many of the key contributors to the successful Eastern D-III teams are born and raised WESTERNERS. We also know that at the D-I level the WCHA has dominated against the East for the last decade. Why such a disparity? It seems one possible answer is that the top tier (talent wise) Western players choose a WCHA team. The next tier chooses to go to an Eastern D-III, and the next tier choosed a Western D-III. Is this in fact what is happening?

One conclusion is that if a girl has an opportunity to get NLI money, she'll be inclined to stay home (West), but if she is paying her way or getting financial aid, she can go anywhere, and does.

I also think that if the above explanation is true, perhaps education has something to do with it. I haven't done the actual research, but I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Westerners attending Eastern schools are attending NESCAC schools. I say this because it would make sense for a girl who wants an Ivy education to travel East to attend Amherst versus staying home and playing for a local state school. Conversely, they would be less likely to travel East to attend Plattsburgh since academically it is similar to UWS or UWSP.

If any of this is true, then it suggests that regional balance will always be affected, and that this year was not an "off year" for the West.

Just throwing it out there for comment.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Thank goodness, something to discuss to get us through the long hot summer and into next season!

I too agree with Plugger that balance in D-III would be good. However, I think there are foces at work that will always work against that balance. Many of the key contributors to the successful Eastern D-III teams are born and raised WESTERNERS. We also know that at the D-I level the WCHA has dominated against the East for the last decade. Why such a disparity? It seems one possible answer is that the top tier (talent wise) Western players choose a WCHA team. The next tier chooses to go to an Eastern D-III, and the next tier choosed a Western D-III. Is this in fact what is happening?

One conclusion is that if a girl has an opportunity to get NLI money, she'll be inclined to stay home (West), but if she is paying her way or getting financial aid, she can go anywhere, and does.

I also think that if the above explanation is true, perhaps education has something to do with it. I haven't done the actual research, but I would guess that the overwhelming majority of Westerners attending Eastern schools are attending NESCAC schools. I say this because it would make sense for a girl who wants an Ivy education to travel East to attend Amherst versus staying home and playing for a local state school. Conversely, they would be less likely to travel East to attend Plattsburgh since academically it is similar to UWS or UWSP.

If any of this is true, then it suggests that regional balance will always be affected, and that this year was not an "off year" for the West.

Just throwing it out there for comment.

I can agree with your assessment.

I would argue that Madison and Minneapolis are great "big city" college environments to rival Boston in the east for D1 talent and seem to be able to attract an easterner or 2 from time to time.

 

[spike]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I can agree with your assessment.

I would argue that Madison and Minneapolis are great "big city" college environments to rival Boston in the east for D1 talent and seem to be able to attract an easterner or 2 from time to time.

I most definitely agree at D-I that UW and UM can be, and are, very attractive places for Eastern girls to attend school. The corollary to my theory, however, is that at D-III there is no compelling reason why Eastern girls would consider going West. But there are compelling reasons why Western girls come East.

 

[mainiac]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Is familiarity the reason Norwich beat Elmira? Or, rather, is lack of familiarity the reason Elmira lost to Norwich?

Neither.....I think Norwich was better prepared and kind of stumped the Elmira offense, much the same way they had Platty the week before. I think they just were disiplined and played their system very well and when they do that they seem to limit teams that for the most part that may be more talented....player for player. Norwich is a team that is run very well from the top down and when they play that 1-2-2, and play it well....it is tough to overcome for some teams.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Neither.....I think Norwich was better prepared and kind of stumped the Elmira offense, much the same way they had Platty the week before. I think they just were disiplined and played their system very well and when they do that they seem to limit teams that for the most part that may be more talented....player for player. Norwich is a team that is run very well from the top down and when they play that 1-2-2, and play it well....it is tough to overcome for some teams.

It looked more to me like they were playing the 1-2-3 system...1 being Fortier, 2 being Leclerc and 3 being Fortin.

 

[nyi19]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

It looked more to me like they were playing the 1-2-3 system...1 being Fortier, 2 being Leclerc and 3 being Fortin.

don't forget 4....5, 6 and 7 in the championship game

 

[gojackets]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I too agree with Plugger that balance in D-III would be good. However, I think there are foces at work that will always work against that balance. Many of the key contributors to the successful Eastern D-III teams are born and raised WESTERNERS. We also know that at the D-I level the WCHA has dominated against the East for the last decade. Why such a disparity? It seems one possible answer is that the top tier (talent wise) Western players choose a WCHA team. The next tier chooses to go to an Eastern D-III, and the next tier choosed a Western D-III. Is this in fact what is happening?

I think what you said is very true for the most part. Occasionally we get the good recruit going D3. Just recently a recruit from Warroad(?) that everyone expected to go to a WCHA school signed on with River Falls. The problem is that many of the top D3 players in the past have moved to D1 after their first year. I don't know how it worked, but Kristy Hakala from UMD transfered to UWS last year, went back to UMD this year and has a great medal to wear around her neck! I don't know how the western private schools compare academically to the NESCAC schools. Name recognition with the NESCAC is probably better, but is a Gustavus/St. Catherine Education that much worse than a Williams/Trinity education?? The NCHA is mostly public especially 2-3 years ago and previous when Lake Forest was the only private school. Now we have Adrian, Marian, Concordia, Finlandia, and next year St. Norbert and St. Scholastica.

I said once before that i'm guessing the talent pool in the west is most likely getting depleted. I'd say 70% at least of American Hockey players west of New York come from Minnesota, and probably another 20% come from Wisconsin. With the WCHA schools included you have roughly 30 colleges recruiting hockey players. On the east coast you have about twice that but they are getting players from Maine, New Hamsphire, Vermont, New York, Mass, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania..maybe New Jersey(?) and MN/WI.

Many of the D3 schools in the west have been recruiting and landing many Canadian players for awhile now, but it hasn't helped them catch up. I really do expect that SNC will be competing for a nation title within 2-3 years. They are putting everything they have into becoming the best team right away. They have people coming from all over the country, Canada and the world.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Name recognition with the NESCAC is probably better, but is a Gustavus/St. Catherine Education that much worse than a Williams/Trinity education??

According to payscale.com the median Williams graduate makes $49,400 out of college and $103,000 at mid-career. Trinity yields $49,100 and $89,900 at mid-career.

Meanwhile in the MIAC, Gustavus grads start at $45,400 with a mid-career of $84,300 and unfortunately, St. Kates isn't measured.

Schools studied with womens hockey at the bottom were USM at $43,600 and Bethel at $41,300 and $60,200.

At the very top of the survey, surprisingly enough is Dartmouth!

And to give you an idea of how strong Amherst is, it out ranks both Brown and Cornell in the study.

The only NESCAC school out ranked by a MIAC school would be Colby - and it also shows in Colby's performance in the NESCAC.

Granted, the cost of living between where the graduates are not factored into this survey, but when you look at the statistics, yes, Williams graduates do much better than the Gustavus.

Here is your link.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp

 

[imafan]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

They are not far away, GAC tried very hard and put up a great effort, but if they could get a little more depth, I believe the results would have been closer.

I think, if you watch Gustavus closely, they are not that far off in depth, but it is the way they attack the offensive zone. They did a good job in the neutral zone and also pretty good job breaking the puck out, but there was no offensive pressure created during a rush.

This has been posted many times on this forum, Gustavus takes a lot of perimeter shots, and then tries to crash the net. But, when you play good teams, and teams with strong goaltending, it is ineffective. So, I don't think it is because they lack the talent, I believe they need to create more offensive opportunities. Both Elmira and Amherst did a very nice job of attacking the defensemen during their rushes, and not just shooting from the perimeter. I saw numerous even numbered rushed by Gustavus, that resulted in long shots.

The east dominated and deserved everything they got, I don't think the west is too far behind, but I hope now realizes they need to change their strategies in order to have any success.

Just an opinion from a "Monday morning quarterback."

 

[spike]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

According to payscale.com the median Williams graduate makes $49,400 out of college and $103,000 at mid-career. Trinity yields $49,100 and $89,900 at mid-career.

Meanwhile in the MIAC, Gustavus grads start at $45,400 with a mid-career of $84,300 and unfortunately, St. Kates isn't measured.

Schools studied with womens hockey at the bottom were USM at $43,600 and Bethel at $41,300 and $60,200.

At the very top of the survey, surprisingly enough is Dartmouth!

And to give you an idea of how strong Amherst is, it out ranks both Brown and Cornell in the study.

The only NESCAC school out ranked by a MIAC school would be Colby - and it also shows in Colby's performance in the NESCAC.

Granted, the cost of living between where the graduates are not factored into this survey, but when you look at the statistics, yes, Williams graduates do much better than the Gustavus.

Here is your link.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp

I intended to note the phenomena of Western girls coming East for academic purposes, and never intended to rekindle debate over whether an Ivy education is worth it or not. Sorry.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I intended to note the phenomena of Western girls coming East for academic purposes, and never intended to rekindle debate over whether an Ivy education is worth it or not. Sorry.

I guess I could have researched an academic ranking site to make my point. Correllating salaries after graduation with educational quality is not the best measure of value added by an institutuion, as much of the result was determined by the quality of matriculants. That was probably a blunt instrument.

For a young lady who is up to the academics, the NESCAC schools provide a superior education to just about any LAC with women's hockey that I can think of.

However, for a student whose academic interests don't match or is ill-prepared to take advantage of a NESCAC school's resources, the outcome will be no better than if they went to a more appropriate match for a school.

One final note, for those whose daughter's are well-qualified and don't have substantial income, the top academic NESCAC schools (think Amherst and Williams in particular here) have the best endowments and give need-based Financial aid very equivalent to that of Harvard and Yale.

 

[SeymoreHockey]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

According to payscale.com the median Williams graduate makes $49,400 out of college and $103,000 at mid-career. Trinity yields $49,100 and $89,900 at mid-career.

Meanwhile in the MIAC, Gustavus grads start at $45,400 with a mid-career of $84,300 and unfortunately, St. Kates isn't measured.

Schools studied with womens hockey at the bottom were USM at $43,600 and Bethel at $41,300 and $60,200.

At the very top of the survey, surprisingly enough is Dartmouth!

And to give you an idea of how strong Amherst is, it out ranks both Brown and Cornell in the study.

The only NESCAC school out ranked by a MIAC school would be Colby - and it also shows in Colby's performance in the NESCAC.

Granted, the cost of living between where the graduates are not factored into this survey, but when you look at the statistics, yes, Williams graduates do much better than the Gustavus.

Here is your link.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp

I'd be interested in knowing how they gather such information. Since a large percentage of hockey players are Canadians who return to Canada after graduation, I'd think these numbers aren't really relavant.

Just sayin...that's all.

 

[spike]

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I'd be interested in knowing how they gather such information. Since a large percentage of hockey players are Canadians who return to Canada after graduation, I'd think these numbers aren't really relavant.

Just sayin...that's all.

I don't think the study was looking at hockey players. I wonder, however, how that study differentiates between someone who graduates from a college and gets a job with someone who graduates from a college, then goes to law school or business school, then gets a job.