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The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

The problem with this thinking is that the NCHA first place team lost to Adrian 4-0 and squeaked past them in OT. This is the same Adrian that got smoked twice by RIT, the third place team you referred to. Not to mention Adrian went 0-4 against two mid-pack ECAC-West teams as well. As it happens I've been ranking LF ahead of RIT consistently, but based on the Adrian connection I would have no problem reversing that ranking if I thought it appropriate.

I keep trying to pull it out of the Fan Opinion poll thread cuz i t doesn't belong in there.


The problem with that is once again your comparing two teams thatnever played eachother. Its impossible to say that since Adrian got swept by RIT and split with Lake Forest that RIT would sweep Lake Forest. We are putting way to much emphasis on what Adrian did. I know that that is the only link between the east and west, but were putting too much emphasis on it.

When Amherst went out and got swept by the two west teams last year, did we move all the west teams to the top of the poll and the east teams to the bottom???
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

A couple of thoughts as to why the east has won all the championships.


First up every final four has had three eastern teams and one from the west. Simple math tells us the east winning any less then 6 would be a failure. Next teams that get in, most years the teams that do not get in by AQ are from the east. Sounds harmless but lets look at it last year the best team in the west was not in the ncaa tourny, this does not happen in the east. Remember the best team does not always win it's conference tournament . In the east the teams that are upset at conference level get the two at large bids. Math behind that say's the east should win 5 out of seven. Then add to that the best team in the east or even top two get in even if they loose their conference title. So sheer numbers and no possibility of being upset and eliminated to the top eastern seeds. Sure seems like the system is working hard for the east.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

A couple of thoughts as to why the east has won all the championships.


First up every final four has had three eastern teams and one from the west. Simple math tells us the east winning any less then 6 would be a failure. Next teams that get in, most years the teams that do not get in by AQ are from the east. Sounds harmless but lets look at it last year the best team in the west was not in the ncaa tourny, this does not happen in the east. Remember the best team does not always win it's conference tournament . In the east the teams that are upset at conference level get the two at large bids. Math behind that say's the east should win 5 out of seven. Then add to that the best team in the east or even top two get in even if they loose their conference title. So sheer numbers and no possibility of being upset and eliminated to the top eastern seeds. Sure seems like the system is working hard for the east.

Very true that it is a numbers game in the NCAA Tourney. More teams = greater chance of winning all things being equal.

The bigger "numbers" issue that faces the west in battling against the east is in the ratio of players to schools.

Without scholarships, most players are not willing to travel more than 4 or 5 hours drive away from home to go to school, as travel is just another expense to add to the cost of tuition, r&b, etc. In addition, without the scouting budgets of D1 schools, D3 are left to scout within their region, reinforcing the locality of the talent.

The rough split between east and west schools is 60-40.

However the split in number of players finishing HS available to each of the regions do not match that ratio.

In the east, you have the Mass, NE, NY, and Atlantic District all within the geographical 4-5 hours drive for scouting and staying close to home.

Out west, you have Minnesota, Central, and Michigan districts within that 4-5 hour drive for scouting and close to home situations.

Mid-Am is kind of split and is small in terms of the number of players. And the SE District generally sends it top talent to NE preps, generally putting those girls in the scouting realm of eastern schools.

As for the RMD and Pacific, once you get on a plane to play hockey, you are going to be scouted at the tournaments you play in and flying 2 hours or 4 hours doesn't make much of a difference when deciding on a school.

And now while it doesn't sound so bad with the districts split this way, in terms of the number of girls playing hockey, the eastern districts far outnumber their western counterparts in terms of the number of girls playing.

And the east has this league called NESCAC which doesn't have an equivalent set of schools in the west to match academically. Many in higher education will argue that an Amherst or Williams education is the equivalent of a Harvard or Yale education and many of the other NESCAC schools match up quite competitively with the other Ivies. There is a reason they are called mini-Ivies. And looking at their rosters, they do draw many of the top academic student playing D3 level hockey from across the nation - both east and west. You'll see 2 or 3 western players on many of their rosters. You'd be hard pressed to find any school in the west that keeps 2 or 3 easterners on their squad over any period of time. And it is just this bit of west to east talent transfer that serves to accentuate the differences in the overall availability of talent.

Yeah, everyone fills their rosters both east and west, but when you have more players to choose from in the east, the 3rd and 4th lines are going to be stronger and injuries to key players won't hurt as much. And that is where the numbers differences shows up in the 2 regions - depth.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Lake Forest beat Elmira in like 03 or something.


But the fact that a west team hasn't won a national championship in the past 8 years affects everything. Why does one past event not count, but another does?


Wow the west has hit an all time low. Cant believe you went to a regular season game from '03'

4-12 in NCAA tournament games...I know I know you kept some games close.

However I'm on the record Gustavus wins NCAA championship this year.
Gustavus over Elmira in finals.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Wow the west has hit an all time low. Cant believe you went to a regular season game from '03'

.

If you used your brain and read...oh wait...nevermind


Not wanting to quote notfromaroundhere's whole post. Recruiting out of high school in the west is tough. All of the top MN players go to the D1 schools. If I counted right there are 16 colleges (including CSS) in MN recruiting hockey players..plus 7 schools in WI (including SNC) where the talent pool is pretty small. 23 schools recruiting from one state is gonna thin out the pool fast.
 
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Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Oh Geez. I'm sorry. I'm in the wrong place. I was looking for the "The West is totally dominant in Division I Women's Hockey" thread. As in "The WCHA has won every single NCAA Women's Hockey Division I Championship" thread. I'm like, totally lost. I'm in the wrong place. Sorry.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Not wanting to quote notfromaroundhere's whole post. Recruiting out of high school in the west is tough. All of the top MN players go to the D1 schools. If I counted right there are 16 colleges (including CSS) in MN recruiting hockey players..plus 7 schools in WI (including SNC) where the talent pool is pretty small. 23 schools recruiting from one state is gonna thin out the pool fast.

If you look at the WCHA rosters, the percentage of "locals" is actually fairly small as they recruit not just nationally, but they eve bring in Europeans and Canadians.

There are players other than Minnesotans who are recruited to the MIAC and NCHA. Wisconsin, Illinois, and Michigan do have a few quality players.

That being said, the situation in the Western D3 schools is too many coaches scouting too few quality players in the region. Adrian is making good use of local Canadians in their local recruiting market, though. SNC seems to be looking outside the region as well at least for its first year. Perhaps this is what is needed to invigorate the competition out west.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Of the teams that have won the DIII national championship since 1999, Plattsburg, Elmira, Manhattenville, and Middlebury have NEVER beaten a Western team in the West! Because they have NEVER played ANY games in the West.

Only Amherst, among the national champs, has actually played games in the West. Their record for games played against Western teams in the WEST is 2-5-2 overall.

For comparison purposes, one can assume that teams and conferences are equally talented in the East and West, on average, and then look at the results to see if this assumption holds up based upon the results.

Let's start with Amherst because they are the only Championship team to have actually played Western teams both in the East and in the West. Since 1999, they have played 12 games against Western teams -- 9 in the West and 3 in the East. Their overall record against Western teams is 3-7-2. They are 2-5-2 for games played in the West (as mentioned above), and 1-2-0 for Western teams played in the East.

Since 2007, Amherst has made the 7-team NCAA championship group each year and has won at least 20 games each season. Since 2007, Amherst is 2-3-0 versus Western teams overall, 2-2-0 versus Western teams played in the West, and 0-1-0 versus Western teams in the East. As most readers know, Amherst acquired 2 of their 5 losses in their championship season last year while playing teams in the West (St. Thomas and Gustavus).

Now, applying the assumption that teams and conferences are assumed to be equal in talent, on average, and comparing records based on 3 classifications, as described below, we get the following results.

The classifications are as follows:

"H/L" means the Eastern team's record for the year is more than 5 points higher than the record of the Western team (e.g., High vs. Low winning records).
"L/H" means the Easter team's record for the year is is more than 5 points lower than the record of the Western team (e.g., low vs. high winning records).
"Tie" means the Eastern team's record for the year is within 5 points (above or below) the Western team's record (on the assumption that a 5 point or less difference is not statistically significant).

The results:

Amherst: Overall 3-7-2; H/L 2-1-0; L/H 1-4-1; Tie 0-2-1
Elmira: Overall 4-1-1; H/L 1-1-0; L/H 0-0-0; Tie 3-0-1
Manhattenville: Overall 2-1-0; H/L 1-1-0; L/H 0-0-0; Tie 1(OT)-0-0
Middlebury: Overall 24-0-0; H/L 18-0-0; L/H 1-0-0; Tie 5-0-0
Plattsburg: Overall 6-1-1; H/L 5-0-0; L/H 0-1-0; Tie 1-0-1

All Eastern Championship Teams: Overall 39-10-4; H/L 27-3-0; L/H 2-5-1; Tie 10-2-3

More later ...
 
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Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Of the teams that have won the DIII national championship since 1999, Plattsburg, Elmira, Manhattenville, and Middlebury have NEVER beaten a Western team in the West! Because they have NEVER played ANY games in the West.

Thats almost true. In Middlebury's 04-05 26-3 season they came west and played Gustavus, River Falls, and St Thomas beating all 3.

If you want a comparison. When Middlebury traveled west and Played gustavues they beat them 4-3 in overtime. When Gustavus had to fly to Middlebury for the FF they beat them 7-3. Might say something about traveling across the country(?)
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Very true that it is a numbers game in the NCAA Tourney. More teams = greater chance of winning all things being equal.

The bigger "numbers" issue that faces the west in battling against the east is in the ratio of players to schools.

Without scholarships, most players are not willing to travel more than 4 or 5 hours drive away from home to go to school, as travel is just another expense to add to the cost of tuition, r&b, etc. In addition, without the scouting budgets of D1 schools, D3 are left to scout within their region, reinforcing the locality of the talent.

The rough split between east and west schools is 60-40.

However the split in number of players finishing HS available to each of the regions do not match that ratio.

In the east, you have the Mass, NE, NY, and Atlantic District all within the geographical 4-5 hours drive for scouting and staying close to home.

Out west, you have Minnesota, Central, and Michigan districts within that 4-5 hour drive for scouting and close to home situations.

Mid-Am is kind of split and is small in terms of the number of players. And the SE District generally sends it top talent to NE preps, generally putting those girls in the scouting realm of eastern schools.

As for the RMD and Pacific, once you get on a plane to play hockey, you are going to be scouted at the tournaments you play in and flying 2 hours or 4 hours doesn't make much of a difference when deciding on a school.

And now while it doesn't sound so bad with the districts split this way, in terms of the number of girls playing hockey, the eastern districts far outnumber their western counterparts in terms of the number of girls playing.

And the east has this league called NESCAC which doesn't have an equivalent set of schools in the west to match academically. Many in higher education will argue that an Amherst or Williams education is the equivalent of a Harvard or Yale education and many of the other NESCAC schools match up quite competitively with the other Ivies. There is a reason they are called mini-Ivies. And looking at their rosters, they do draw many of the top academic student playing D3 level hockey from across the nation - both east and west. You'll see 2 or 3 western players on many of their rosters. You'd be hard pressed to find any school in the west that keeps 2 or 3 easterners on their squad over any period of time. And it is just this bit of west to east talent transfer that serves to accentuate the differences in the overall availability of talent.

Yeah, everyone fills their rosters both east and west, but when you have more players to choose from in the east, the 3rd and 4th lines are going to be stronger and injuries to key players won't hurt as much. And that is where the numbers differences shows up in the 2 regions - depth.

best post of the year.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Instead of cluttering up the Fan Poll thread...we might as well have a thread for this topic.


Easts Arguments:
Lake Forest lost to UMB therefore the west sucks
Adrian tied Potsdam therefore the west sucks
Eventhough top eastern teams have lost or tied inferior eastern team that is irrelevant because the east is inherently better than the west
therefore the west sucks

The west has never won a frozen four, therefore the west sucks.



Did I forget any?

I know,I know Gustavus had plane legs no no they had bus legs, no no the walk from the dorms to the rink is very far.

Did I forget any ?

Congrats to Amherst and Norwich.

(Just having some with ya go jackets)
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

not bad tho...I had 2/4 final four teams from a month ago!

No problems!

I saw your old post and thought it was funny how it turned out!!

Your dream must have been telling you to bet the 3rd place game!!

Most of us wouldn't have picked as well as you for 2 of 4 finalists.
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

I know,I know Gustavus had plane legs no no they had bus legs, no no the walk from the dorms to the rink is very far.

Did I forget any ?

Congrats to Amherst and Norwich.

(Just having some with ya go jackets)

Gustavus can't beat teams with a goalie....therefore Amherst cheated :D
 
Re: The "Official" East is better than the west IN D3 thread

Instead of cluttering up the Fan Poll thread...we might as well have a thread for this topic.


Easts Arguments:
Lake Forest lost to UMB therefore the west sucks
Adrian tied Potsdam therefore the west sucks
Eventhough top eastern teams have lost or tied inferior eastern team that is irrelevant because the east is inherently better than the west
therefore the west sucks

The west has never won a frozen four, therefore the west sucks.



Did I forget any?

That about sums it up....yawwwwwn....time for bed.
 
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