The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

[AnchorsAway]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Lake State will be a bit weaker offensively after the news today that Sophomore Buddy Robinson signed a three year deal with the Ottawa Senators, becoming the second underclassmen this off-season and 4th in the last 2 years to leave Lake State for the pros with eligibility left on the table.

 

[Freddie]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

This is why the WCHA should do some sort of playoff system without a central tournament. Only the top 8 teams get in already so just do a home ice three game series as is done now ---- then a two game home ice semi-final series (advance on goals differential) --- then a one and done for the championship on home ice.

The cost for the extra flights might be somewhat more but should be offset easily by the extra revenue sharing it would create. I would think the minimum number of paying fans would average out over the years to be 20,000+ for those last five games. Some years it may be less depending on the last five game participants; some years it will be more.

Year A:
Lake State @ Ferris Wheel
Mankato @ Tech
Championship Game @ Tech
Total attendance estimate = 16,000

Year B:
UAF @ Mankato
Ferris Wheel @ UAA
Championship Game @ Mankato
Total Attendance Estimate = 23,500

What's the most people a central tournament is going to draw? 12,000 total?

Naturally, there are other ways to structure this and/or your estimates of total attendance figures could vary. Present your ideas though ... this central tournament idea is a bust.

This is complete nonsense, and totally un-workable on many levels.
I'm assuming you intend to have semis and finals on the same weekend. Look at "year B" on your example. Whoever wins that semi-final in Anchorage has got 21 hours to get to Mankato for tomorrow's championship game. What are you going to do, have a charter jet standing by at the Anchorage airport? Don't forget you'd also have to have another charter standing by in Mankato or Minneapolis in case the semi-final results came out another way.

OK, solve this problem by holding semi-finals and finals over two weekends. That backs up the entire season's schedule a week, and forces all 10 rinks to hold 3 consecutive weekends OPEN just in case. I don't care if your rink in owned by the school or another entity...go ask the rink management if they can afford to block out 3 entire weekends in March for games that MIGHT happen.

 

[BG_Falcons]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

BGSU Season review/next year (going off beaverhockeyfan's post)

BGSU averaged 2.4 goals while giving up an average of 2.6 goals a game, but improved since the previous season. Average attendance for the 17 home games equaled 2518/game (50.36% Capacity)

BGSU was 6-6-7 in the 20 one goal games this season with the 7 representing OTL/SO/Tie's

Falcons where 3-12-3 playing against teams ranked at the time of play and where 3-8-3 against teams that made the NCAA Tournament.

BGSU is losing 4 seniors that accounted for only 9 of the teams 100 goals and 17 of the 173 assists with the big loss being Goalie Andrew Hammond who went 10-15-3 with a .917 and 2.47 GAA

Seniors for next season are Captain Camden Wojtala (8-8-16), Bryce Williamson (12-7-19), Brett Mohler (6-5-11), Andrew Wallace (3-5-8), Chad Sumsion (0-3-3), Ryan Viselli (0-1-1). With Wojtala and Williamson anchoring the 2nd line and Mohler a strong offensive threat on the 3rd or 4th line and Wallace having the best FO% on the team as the 4th line center. Sumsion/Viselli provide a lot of energy in limited time.

Returning are the full Super Sophomore Class becoming Jrs. (Carpenter, DeSalvo, Berkle, Sullivan, etc.)
This one class accounted for 34 of the 100 goals and 83 of the 173 assists, Jake Sloat missed entire season with a broken leg suffered in the exhibition game after having a good Freshman season (1-7-8).

Along with the strong Sophomore class last season the Falcons increased in scoring by a productive Freshman class with the freshman accounting for 28 out of 100 goals and 44 out of 173 assists. The freshman class also produced solid backup goalie and favorite to start next season Tommy Burke who went 5-6-2 with an .899 and 2.57 GAA.

Former Latvian WJC captain Ralfs Freiberg had an impressive albeit short debut with the Falcons scoring a goal and adding 6 assists for 7 points in only 8 games and improving a struggling powerplay.

Overall I think the Falcons should be very strong offensively for next season and have solid defensive play with Freiberg getting a full season of playing and Sloat returning. The big question mark however will be goaltending with only major loss due to graduation/signed by the Senators being Andrew Hammond.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

This is complete nonsense, and totally un-workable on many levels.

I'm assuming you intend to have semis and finals on the same weekend. Look at "year B" on your example. Whoever wins that semi-final in Anchorage has got 21 hours to get to Mankato for tomorrow's championship game. What are you going to do, have a charter jet standing by at the Anchorage airport? Don't forget you'd also have to have another charter standing by in Mankato or Minneapolis in case the semi-final results came out another way.

OK, solve this problem by holding semi-finals and finals over two weekends. That backs up the entire season's schedule a week, and forces all 10 rinks to hold 3 consecutive weekends OPEN just in case. I don't care if your rink in owned by the school or another entity...go ask the rink management if they can afford to block out 3 entire weekends in March for games that MIGHT happen.

Nice strawman first paragraph which you solved yourself in the 2nd paragraph.

Yes, the semi's and then the final are held over two weekends. Your only real point seems to be regarding rink scheduling. Those rinks are ALREADY held for two weeks just in case. Stretching it to a 3rd "weekend" (actually just one night) is completely not "unworkable"; all the teams in the league have bye weekends which provide the extra week. This proposal does nothing different than what hundreds of NCAA men's and women's basketball teams do in terms of travel. Your visceral sounding objections are quite out of line with reality.

Having centralized tournaments is going to cost the league revenue; it's clear they will be a bust. My proposal (or some form of the same idea) isn't some radical solution. It's a common sense approach.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Nice strawman first paragraph which you solved yourself in the 2nd paragraph.

Yes, the semi's and then the final are held over two weekends. Your only real point seems to be regarding rink scheduling. Those rinks are ALREADY held for two weeks just in case. Stretching it to a 3rd "weekend" (actually just one night) is completely not "unworkable"; all the teams in the league have bye weekends which provide the extra week. This proposal does nothing different than what hundreds of NCAA men's and women's basketball teams do in terms of travel. Your visceral sounding objections are quite out of line with reality.

Having centralized tournaments is going to cost the league revenue; it's clear they will be a bust. My proposal (or some form of the same idea) isn't some radical solution. It's a common sense approach.

None of the WCHA arenas are held for two weeks currently...I'm not sure what you're talking about? Yes the CCHA arenas have two weeks already but that is an except and not normal...There are other issues related to something like this like holding hotel rooms, etc for whatever team might be visiting, etc. It's more complicated than that...

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

None of the WCHA arenas are held for two weeks currently...I'm not sure what you're talking about? Yes the CCHA arenas have two weeks already but that is an except and not normal...There are other issues related to something like this like holding hotel rooms, etc for whatever team might be visiting, etc. It's more complicated than that...

Cos 20 hotel rooms is hard to arrange in March in any of the nWCHA cities? Oh yeah, I forgot about the big rush of mid/late March tourism to Toledo for the annual "Is There Still Snow On The Farms" Festival.

None of these dynamic travel issues are any big deal for NCAA athletic departments; they all arrange such things all the time for their cadre of other sports. It's not a cost issue either since having these home series would create more revenue than the centralized tournament.

Eliminating the WCHA centralized tournaments in favor of some sort of home-team based playoffs is a good idea. Does it present a different set of minor challenges? Yes. Would it generate significantly more attendance revenue? Yep.

 

[Freddie]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Cos 20 hotel rooms is hard to arrange in March in any of the nWCHA cities? Oh yeah, I forgot about the big rush of mid/late March tourism to Toledo for the annual "Is There Still Snow On The Farms" Festival.

None of these dynamic travel issues are any big deal for NCAA athletic departments; they all arrange such things all the time for their cadre of other sports. It's not a cost issue either since having these home series would create more revenue than the centralized tournament.

Eliminating the WCHA centralized tournaments in favor of some sort of home-team based playoffs is a good idea. Does it present a different set of minor challenges? Yes. Would it generate significantly more attendance revenue? Yep.

You are clearly delusional, probably an unwitting victim of Seasonal Affective Disorder or Sunlight Deprivation.
I'm not going to argue with you, it just wouldn't be fair.

 

[spiehler]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

What worries me about the WCHA is that it could become a second-tier league. Sure, there are national championships in the group, but what have you done for me lately (besides FSU last season)?

The WCHA press releases are precious, though.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

I can tell you one thing for sure. it will not be a second tier league any more than the nchc will be a preeminent one. The fact is they will end up pretty much equal.

 

[pdt1081]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Nice strawman first paragraph which you solved yourself in the 2nd paragraph.

Yes, the semi's and then the final are held over two weekends. Your only real point seems to be regarding rink scheduling. Those rinks are ALREADY held for two weeks just in case. Stretching it to a 3rd "weekend" (actually just one night) is completely not "unworkable"; all the teams in the league have bye weekends which provide the extra week. This proposal does nothing different than what hundreds of NCAA men's and women's basketball teams do in terms of travel. Your visceral sounding objections are quite out of line with reality.

Having centralized tournaments is going to cost the league revenue; it's clear they will be a bust. My proposal (or some form of the same idea) isn't some radical solution. It's a common sense approach.

This ain't bouncy ball. There's 20 hockey players that dress for each game, plus the coaches, training staff, equipment staff AND ALL THE EQUIPMENT. Is the travel party for basketball teams even 10 people (players, coaches, trainer)? And I don't know about other schools, but here in Bowling Green, the men's and women's basketball teams are the only ones who use the basketball arena. The Ice Arena is used by many members of the community for more than just college hockey.

Schools try to schedule the maximum number of games each season. The two week playoff schedule the CCHA has used the last few years has resulted in many mid-week games. BG played games with both Michigan and Notre Dame this season on Tuesdays (BG also had a bye week). Both those schools are within reasonable driving distance for a single game. No schools in the WCHA are close enough for this. So under your proposal, teams would have to give up a non-conference series, possibly a home one, just to fit the games into the season.

And, no offense, but if the Championship game is to take place at one of the Alaska schools, how many people would actually show up? And would any money be saved flying an entire team there for one game?

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

This ain't bouncy ball. There's 20 hockey players that dress for each game, plus the coaches, training staff, equipment staff AND ALL THE EQUIPMENT. Is the travel party for basketball teams even 10 people (players, coaches, trainer)? And I don't know about other schools, but here in Bowling Green, the men's and women's basketball teams are the only ones who use the basketball arena. The Ice Arena is used by many members of the community for more than just college hockey.

Do you think NCAA athletes get a room to themselves? Do you think the arena there at BG is going to flinch at holding an extra weekend open because it might impact an "open skate" or a "beer league" game? Do you think the open skate or beer league game wouldn't easily go forward when BG is eliminated in the first round anyway? None of your points are valid.

Schools try to schedule the maximum number of games each season. The two week playoff schedule the CCHA has used the last few years has resulted in many mid-week games. BG played games with both Michigan and Notre Dame this season on Tuesdays (BG also had a bye week). Both those schools are within reasonable driving distance for a single game. No schools in the WCHA are close enough for this. So under your proposal, teams would have to give up a non-conference series, possibly a home one, just to fit the games into the season.

You need to look at the composite schedule. When you do you'll see these things called "bye weeks". Nobody has to give up any home non-conference games. And every non-Alaskan team will get to play a minimum of 36 regular season home games a season which is two over and above the 34 game limit.

And, no offense, but if the Championship game is to take place at one of the Alaska schools, how many people would actually show up? And would any money be saved flying an entire team there for one game?

Either arena in Alaska would be sold-out for a conference championship game. I would expect that would be the case at every school in the league but I wouldn't guarantee it. In Anchorage I would guarantee it. A winning team there will mean a fuller barn. It's a horrible bandwagon hockey town but it is definitely a hockey town. The money generated by the increased attendence from all the home series would be easily offset the expense of flying to WHEREVER the championship game is played. Figure it out yourself. It isn't difficult. A central conference tournament is going to be lucky to put a total of 15,000 butts in the seats. 5 games in any combination of home arenas will be a minimum of 20,000 butts in seats. All playoff revenue is shared. You don't have to rent the expensive Xcel or the Van Andel plus the other costs the league incurs surrounding putting on the tournament.

The home series alternative makes more money. End of story.

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

You are clearly delusional, probably an unwitting victim of Seasonal Affective Disorder or Sunlight Deprivation.
I'm not going to argue with you, it just wouldn't be fair.

No. I've presented reasonable options and clearly addressed your unreasoned objections which are now followed by this ad hominem.

 

[MavHockey14]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Just block the guy so you don't have to read any of it. Sheesh.

 

[aparch]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

How about you take a look at attendance figures while you're at it. You're not going to pack these barns. We've discussed capacity in a prior thread. There aren't any NoDak's or Minnesota's in this league where they can pack a home rink with at least 10k fans. You're looking at drawing 2k if you're lucky.

I think the logistics have been more than explained about building rentals, flights, and hotel rooms; and you continue to conveniently ignore them arguing that your numbers are better. Your numbers are bullsh*t.


What hasn't been mentioned is the corporate sponsorship. Amway may be kicking in a good chunk to have the WCHA rent Van Andel for a weekend. I have no clue even IF there is corporate sponsorship lined up or in the works. Either way, the opportunity to have a big name corporate sponsor like Red Baron, Amway, Wells Fargo, Fifth Third, etc. are much easier to attract to a venue with corporate suites and an established relationship. It's MUCH harder to convince these sponsors to promote the sport in a podunk down on the shores of Lake Superior, or located just off a godforsaken snow mobile trail in the interior of Alaska.


From my limited experiences in watching these events, money drives them, and no matter how few fans are in the seats, the right levels of corporate sponsorship always make it a profitable event. If the CCHA was hemorrhaging money, they would have bailed years ago on JLA and moved elsewhere. Same with the WCHA.


This isn't the '80's NCAA. No more home ice championships for league titles. Get over it. Cut the cord. Move on.

 

[aparch]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Oh, and Donald, these "bye weeks" you keep yammering about? They're mandated breaks required to be taken by the NCAA. How about you read the *ing NCAA handbook instead of masturbating to some fictional UAA/UA_ WCHA Championship game played on the Mystery Alaska ice rink?

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

How about you take a look at attendance figures while you're at it. You're not going to pack these barns. We've discussed capacity in a prior thread. There aren't any NoDak's or Minnesota's in this league where they can pack a home rink with at least 10k fans. You're looking at drawing 2k if you're lucky.

Are you really saying that a semi-playoff series in the nWCHA is going to draw less attendance than a regular season game?
2011-12 Regular Season average attendance numbers for every rink:
Mankato = 3655/4832
UAH = 3268*/6800
Bemidji = 3225/4350
MTU = 3078/4200
NMU = 2845/3800
UAF = 2820/4595
UAA = 2729/6206
BGSU = 2518/5000
Ferris = 2128/2457
LSSU = 2044/3373

Pick any two rinks -- project attendance numbers for two 2 game home semi-finals series and then imagine a 1 game final game. Add up the attendance. Make your case that attendance isn't higher than what everyone in this thread was projecting for a tourny at Van Andel/Xcel. I'll pick the two smallest rinks.

LSSU hosts Team A ... assume 2500 for both games (yes .... higher than this years regular season average. Any team that can't put more fans into it's home rink for a semi-final playoff series shouldn't be in the league).
Ferris hosts Team B ... assume 2250 for both games
Ferris hosts championship ... assume 2250 for single game

That's 11,750 fans in what I would call the worst case scenario for WCHA attendance under my proposal. A reasoned estimate from another poster in this thread projects total tournament attendance at the Xcel or Van Andel at about 12,000. My original assertion used 16,000 total attendance. If both LSSU and Ferris Wheel can pack their barns for a semi-final series and a championship game then the total would be 14,000+. Again, this is a worst case scenario using the two smallest rinks. Running the same numbers for Mankato and Bemidji results in a low attendance figure of 19325 and a high of 22714.

Want to dispute my attendance figures. Please do. Estimate the attendance at the Xcel and Van Andel rinks compare to your own estimates of attendance at semi-final and championship home dates. That's the extent of my original assertion. I answered the other valid questions/issues raised as a result of my assertion. Nothing so far has changed my view that the idea of trying to continue the "Final Five" ideology is a mistake. There is no significant traveling fanbase amongst the current membership to fill up the Xcel or Van Andel. An Xcel tournament that includes Bemidji and Mankato might not do too badly in term of attendance. One that includes UAF, LSSU, UAH and BGSU will be empty. How about a tourney at Van Andel that includes Bemidji, Mankato, UAA and BGSU?

It's not unreasonable by any measure to explore a home-series semis/championship set-up.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Ladies and Gents, I present uaafanblog's state of mind right now:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K_BX6GB-b00" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[BG_Falcons]

Re: The New WCHA 3, Revenge of the Sieve (2013-14)

Are you really saying that a semi-playoff series in the nWCHA is going to draw less attendance than a regular season game?
2011-12 Regular Season average attendance numbers for every rink:
Mankato = 3655/4832
UAH = 3268*/6800
Bemidji = 3225/4350
MTU = 3078/4200
NMU = 2845/3800
UAF = 2820/4595
UAA = 2729/6206
BGSU = 2518/5000
Ferris = 2128/2457
LSSU = 2044/3373

Pick any two rinks -- project attendance numbers for two 2 game home semi-finals series and then imagine a 1 game final game. Add up the attendance. Make your case that attendance isn't higher than what everyone in this thread was projecting for a tourny at Van Andel/Xcel. I'll pick the two smallest rinks.

LSSU hosts Team A ... assume 2500 for both games (yes .... higher than this years regular season average. Any team that can't put more fans into it's home rink for a semi-final playoff series shouldn't be in the league).
Ferris hosts Team B ... assume 2250 for both games
Ferris hosts championship ... assume 2250 for single game

That's 11,750 fans in what I would call the worst case scenario for WCHA attendance under my proposal. A reasoned estimate from another poster in this thread projects total tournament attendance at the Xcel or Van Andel at about 12,000. My original assertion used 16,000 total attendance. If both LSSU and Ferris Wheel can pack their barns for a semi-final series and a championship game then the total would be 14,000+. Again, this is a worst case scenario using the two smallest rinks. Running the same numbers for Mankato and Bemidji results in a low attendance figure of 19325 and a high of 22714.

Want to dispute my attendance figures. Please do. Estimate the attendance at the Xcel and Van Andel rinks compare to your own estimates of attendance at semi-final and championship home dates. That's the extent of my original assertion. I answered the other valid questions/issues raised as a result of my assertion. Nothing so far has changed my view that the idea of trying to continue the "Final Five" ideology is a mistake. There is no significant traveling fanbase amongst the current membership to fill up the Xcel or Van Andel. An Xcel tournament that includes Bemidji and Mankato might not do too badly in term of attendance. One that includes UAF, LSSU, UAH and BGSU will be empty. How about a tourney at Van Andel that includes Bemidji, Mankato, UAA and BGSU?

It's not unreasonable by any measure to explore a home-series semis/championship set-up.

I wouldn't disregard the traveling BG fan base for a semi/championship at a neutral (close site). When BG made the final 4 in the CCHA tourney last year they sold out the entire school allotment and where pretty close to out drawing Michigan at the Joe for the game, and definitely out drew the other 2 schools there. (Western and Miami) but the chance of that happening again would only work at maybe the Grand Rapids site and because BG constantly will fan bus people to wherever a team plays. (They sent a bus to NC for the Women's sweet 16, the bowl game in DC this year) benefits of a DI budget and being located next to 2 major highways I guess...also I would love to know your experience in dealing with college athletics and where you get your numbers from sometimes to come up with your "facts."

 

[Jimjamesak]

Ladies and Gents, I present uaafanblog's state of mind right now:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/K_BX6GB-b00" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And people wonder why the rest of the UAA fanbase here is disassociating themselves from him.

 

[aparch]

Are you really saying that a semi-playoff series in the nWCHA is going to draw less attendance than a regular season game?

Yep. I am. And I think the actual numbers from the USCHO boxscores will backup my theory.

How convenient you ignored the sponsorship aspect. Or just how the WCHA is going to be able to book flights and hotel rooms and rink times for these teams.

There is a lot more logisitics, and I'd venture that a host school was discussed, but sponsorship and money likely kept a neutral site the best option.