The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

[Happy]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

It would never happen... happy is as unproductive and lazy as the team he roots for.

We did win two NC in the last decade, and you didn't. I guess that makes UND lazier.

 

[Happy]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Develop your own ranking using your own criteria. Post it. It would be read with the same interest, dicussion, and criticism as every other ranking system that has been posted.

OK Very simple formula.

Each National Championship is worth 1 point. Each National Championship runner up is worth half a point. Each Hobey Baker Award is worth 1 point. Each undefeated season is worth 1 point. Team that has won more head to head worth 1 point.

Minnesota is at 14 to 16 points, depending on how you want to count their pre-ncaa championships, and UND has 11.5 points.

See, that was easy.

Oh, and I am too lazy to see where Michigan is at, but I think someone will figure it out.

 

[cg_siouxfan]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

 

[Happy]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

That's a pretty harsh thing to direct to FS 23, but he deserves it.

 

[willythekid]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

That's a pretty harsh thing to direct to FS 23, but he deserves it.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Since this thread was supposed to be somewhat serious, and it has dived into the crazy, I think it might be time to end it. It was a lot of fun doing the research for this, and the time spent was worth it. At the end of the day it is just a formula, people are going to believe that programs should be ranked in a certain way regardless of what the formula says. I'm glad many of you enjoyed it, and it was a fun, albeit quick, week. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask them and, as always, I'll do my best to respond. I'll be updating the list at the end of each season, so look for the new rankings probably within a week or two of the Frozen Four wrapping up. Again, thank you everyone for all the fun banter back and forth.

 

[willythekid]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Since this thread was supposed to be somewhat serious, and it has dived into the crazy, I think it might be time to end it. It was a lot of fun doing the research for this, and the time spent was worth it. At the end of the day it is just a formula, people are going to believe that programs should be ranked in a certain way regardless of what the formula says. I'm glad many of you enjoyed it, and it was a fun, albeit quick, week. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask them and, as always, I'll do my best to respond. I'll be updating the list at the end of each season, so look for the new rankings probably within a week or two of the Frozen Four wrapping up. Again, thank you everyone for all the fun banter back and forth.

I can't imagine the time it took to put together this project, but I hope it was a labor of love. I think that almost everyone that visited this thread really did enjoy even if they didn't post to that effect. It stimulated some great discussion as any great thread deserving a hall of fame nod should. It's a shame that an @-hole like happy has to come along at the end and crap on it because his feelings were hurt, the North Dakota envy must be really making him squirm this year. Thanks for all the effort and can't wait to see where UND sits next year after winning #8....

 

[Biddco]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

OK Very simple formula.

Each National Championship is worth 1 point. Each National Championship runner up is worth half a point. Each Hobey Baker Award is worth 1 point. Each undefeated season is worth 1 point. Team that has won more head to head worth 1 point.

Minnesota is at 14 to 16 points, depending on how you want to count their pre-ncaa championships, and UND has 11.5 points.

See, that was easy.

Oh, and I am too lazy to see where Michigan is at, but I think someone will figure it out.

That is a surprisingly fair point system. See I would assume you would have docked UND for having over aged Canadians. Job well done!

 

[vizoroo]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Since this thread was supposed to be somewhat serious, and it has dived into the crazy, I think it might be time to end it. It was a lot of fun doing the research for this, and the time spent was worth it. At the end of the day it is just a formula, people are going to believe that programs should be ranked in a certain way regardless of what the formula says. I'm glad many of you enjoyed it, and it was a fun, albeit quick, week. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask them and, as always, I'll do my best to respond. I'll be updating the list at the end of each season, so look for the new rankings probably within a week or two of the Frozen Four wrapping up. Again, thank you everyone for all the fun banter back and forth.

Lots of good work!
Although I pegged DU at #4.

 

[sterlippo1]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Since this thread was supposed to be somewhat serious, and it has dived into the crazy, I think it might be time to end it. It was a lot of fun doing the research for this, and the time spent was worth it. At the end of the day it is just a formula, people are going to believe that programs should be ranked in a certain way regardless of what the formula says. I'm glad many of you enjoyed it, and it was a fun, albeit quick, week. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask them and, as always, I'll do my best to respond. I'll be updating the list at the end of each season, so look for the new rankings probably within a week or two of the Frozen Four wrapping up. Again, thank you everyone for all the fun banter back and forth.

great job, thank you

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Very much enjoyed your rankings and formula. Sorry this response is so late in the game (um, after the game has ended?); did not realize how long the registration process would take.

This is a suggestion for a complementary measure, not at all a criticism!

When you say 'greatest programs of all time' it seems to me that the concept of a 'program' goes beyond the players and coaches to include the fan base as well. No doubt you thought of that; and figured that you lacked an appropriate, objective metric.

Here is a suggestion. You also give points to programs that have a published history. I'm not talking about a magazine article (though if you want to refine it...), I mean an actual book in print from an actual publisher. You might give it half a score if the publisher of the Omega hockey program is Omega University Press; and a full score if the publisher is a commercial enterprise that actually plans to make money on the book (I suppose people who like this idea and want to refine it could add points based on number of copies sold, etc.).

I know for sure that there is at least one program that is memorialized in a published book from a commercial publisher; while I did absolutely no research at all, my bet would be that there are at least 7 - 10 of these books out there.

I'll wait and see if there is any response before I identify the book and publisher....

Again, I really enjoyed your research and your commentary. I came here looking for something else entirely and was hooked into reading the entire thread from start to current.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Very much enjoyed your rankings and formula. Sorry this response is so late in the game (um, after the game has ended?); did not realize how long the registration process would take.

This is a suggestion for a complementary measure, not at all a criticism!

When you say 'greatest programs of all time' it seems to me that the concept of a 'program' goes beyond the players and coaches to include the fan base as well. No doubt you thought of that; and figured that you lacked an appropriate, objective metric.

Here is a suggestion. You also give points to programs that have a published history. I'm not talking about a magazine article (though if you want to refine it...), I mean an actual book in print from an actual publisher. You might give it half a score if the publisher of the Omega hockey program is Omega University Press; and a full score if the publisher is a commercial enterprise that actually plans to make money on the book (I suppose people who like this idea and want to refine it could add points based on number of copies sold, etc.).

I know for sure that there is at least one program that is memorialized in a published book from a commercial publisher; while I did absolutely no research at all, my bet would be that there are at least 7 - 10 of these books out there.

I'll wait and see if there is any response before I identify the book and publisher....

Again, I really enjoyed your research and your commentary. I came here looking for something else entirely and was hooked into reading the entire thread from start to current.

Books are nice, but obviously, big schools with big fan bases are going to sell more copies than small schools with small fanbases.

I have college hockey books highlighting Minnesota, Michigan, Denver, Cornell, BU, Michigan State, Yale, North Dakota and Wisconsin off the top of my head.

There are probably others, and my favorite two college hockey books are about Princeton's Hobey Baker.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Very much enjoyed your rankings and formula. Sorry this response is so late in the game (um, after the game has ended?); did not realize how long the registration process would take.

This is a suggestion for a complementary measure, not at all a criticism!

When you say 'greatest programs of all time' it seems to me that the concept of a 'program' goes beyond the players and coaches to include the fan base as well. No doubt you thought of that; and figured that you lacked an appropriate, objective metric.

Here is a suggestion. You also give points to programs that have a published history. I'm not talking about a magazine article (though if you want to refine it...), I mean an actual book in print from an actual publisher. You might give it half a score if the publisher of the Omega hockey program is Omega University Press; and a full score if the publisher is a commercial enterprise that actually plans to make money on the book (I suppose people who like this idea and want to refine it could add points based on number of copies sold, etc.).

I know for sure that there is at least one program that is memorialized in a published book from a commercial publisher; while I did absolutely no research at all, my bet would be that there are at least 7 - 10 of these books out there.

I'll wait and see if there is any response before I identify the book and publisher....

Again, I really enjoyed your research and your commentary. I came here looking for something else entirely and was hooked into reading the entire thread from start to current.

Interesting. I never really thought of books/published articles to be honest. As Swami said, it basically would give a huge advantage to larger schools and schools with a longer history. Saying that, it's not necessarily a "bad" thing for that to be the case, as it provides further legitimacy to the power of a program. Research would be a little difficult, as there could theoretically be a book about say Yale hockey from 1940 and it sold 10 copies and was put out by their university press. Ultimately, I don't think I'd include it in my formula. My formula is based almost purely on on-ice performance. There are a lot of "intangibles" that could be put together such as Attendance, Stadium Size, Program Revenue, and Graduation Rates (to name a few). It would be difficult research considering the all-time nature of the formula, but doable.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Um....

The suggestion was to find a metric for measuring how alumni, fans, pep bands, etc. contribute to the essence of 'program' so that it is not merely players and coaches.

You can say 'why bother?' or you can say, hmm. what is a good objective metric?

Sounds like what you are saying here is something like 'I don't like the way this one would turn out and so I'm rejecting it, not by arguing whether it is a valid metric, but because I don't think I'd like the result."

Ah, never mind, it looks like this ship has already sailed, oh well....

I could argue that a 'program' could get special recognition if its fans were so fervent in their support, their fervor at a particular event resulted in a rules change! Now that would narrow the field down to one school, I think.....

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Um....

The suggestion was to find a metric for measuring how alumni, fans, pep bands, etc. contribute to the essence of 'program' so that it is not merely players and coaches.

You can say 'why bother?' or you can say, hmm. what is a good objective metric?

Sounds like what you are saying here is something like 'I don't like the way this one would turn out and so I'm rejecting it, not by arguing whether it is a valid metric, but because I don't think I'd like the result."

Ah, never mind, it looks like this ship has already sailed, oh well....

I could argue that a 'program' could get special recognition if its fans were so fervent in their support, their fervor at a particular event resulted in a rules change! Now that would narrow the field down to one school, I think.....

I don't think Swami was rejecting it completely, just stating that there would be an advantage towards certain schools (I would also argue that this isn't necessarily a bad thing) if that was what was used.

It's going to be very difficult to find a metric. While some programs are so fervent in their support that it leads to rules changes, others are so fervent that they suckerpunch fans on the road. Which is better? Which is worth more? That's where it would be very difficult.

Saying that, I'm up for trying to hammer out a formula for best fan base.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Interesting. I never really thought of books/published articles to be honest. As Swami said, it basically would give a huge advantage to larger schools and schools with a longer history. Saying that, it's not necessarily a "bad" thing for that to be the case, as it provides further legitimacy to the power of a program. Research would be a little difficult, as there could theoretically be a book about say Yale hockey from 1940 and it sold 10 copies and was put out by their university press. Ultimately, I don't think I'd include it in my formula. My formula is based almost purely on on-ice performance. There are a lot of "intangibles" that could be put together such as Attendance, Stadium Size, Program Revenue, and Graduation Rates (to name a few). It would be difficult research considering the all-time nature of the formula, but doable.

Well we could narrow down the metric by going on reputable bookseller websites, like Amazon....speaking theoretically at this point. I found a book about a program that way when I was doing Christmas shopping for progency that attend said school and follow their hockey team. If you lay out the metric I'll do the search, okay? As others have said, it would favor certain programs over others. So what? emphasizing NCAA championships 'favors' the teams that have won the most of them. Besides, as you yourself said, you could take the points and divide by the number of years that the program has been around, whatever.

I'm merely suggesting an element of 'program' that you can include or not; the real challenge is the metric, and the book suggestion was one way to measure it.

 

[goblue78]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Let me be the nth to say Nice job. I'm not sure I understand your formula, though. You have 6 metrics which give you six rankings. Now, how did you assign weights? You said something about percentages, but I didn't understand it. Maybe an example would help, if that makes sense.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

just stating that there would be an advantage towards certain schools (I would also argue that this isn't necessarily a bad thing) if that was what was used.

We agree here; however in a sense I disagree with the logic that brings us here....the idea is to develop a metric that satisfies certain objective criteria; you should not reject the metric simply because the criteria might favor certain schools over another, because ultimately that is the whole point of developing a metric to begin with, to rank schools.

It's going to be very difficult to find a metric. While some programs are so fervent in their support that it leads to rules changes, others are so fervent that they suckerpunch fans on the road. Which is better? Which is worth more? That's where it would be very difficult.

Not quite as difficult from my perspective, perhaps, to me criminal behavior is never okay, not in the stands, and not on the ice. The incident to which I refer was analogous to vuvuzelas at the World Cup in South Africa, it is now against the rules to hand out noisemakers to everyone attending a hockey game that also serves as an annual 'event.'

(hmm...another possible metric, except that the work might be daunting....oh wait you said you had media guides? it would be really tedious and I am not suggesting anyone actually do it at this juncture....any recurring 'theme' games.....yeah, there's the beanpot, so objections can begin right there, other schools also have 'theme' games.....anything that one could measure that indicates something about the relative level of fan / alumni support....one that is impossible to use would be the ratio of seats filled to seats available, both at home and on the road....

Saying that, I'm up for trying to hammer out a formula for best fan base. [/QUOTE]

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Let me be the nth to say Nice job. I'm not sure I understand your formula, though. You have 6 metrics which give you six rankings. Now, how did you assign weights? You said something about percentages, but I didn't understand it. Maybe an example would help, if that makes sense.

For instance, you get x amount of points for a NCAA Tournament bid, y amount of points for a NCAA Tournament win and z amount of points for a NCAA Tournament loss. Then let's make p = NCAA Tournament winning percentage. Then what we do is take p(x+y+z). That's not exactly how mine works, but it's fairly similar.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

We agree here; however in a sense I disagree with the logic that brings us here....the idea is to develop a metric that satisfies certain objective criteria; you should not reject the metric simply because the criteria might favor certain schools over another, because ultimately that is the whole point of developing a metric to begin with, to rank schools.


Not quite as difficult from my perspective, perhaps, to me criminal behavior is never okay, not in the stands, and not on the ice. The incident to which I refer was analogous to vuvuzelas at the World Cup in South Africa, it is now against the rules to hand out noisemakers to everyone attending a hockey game that also serves as an annual 'event.'

(hmm...another possible metric, except that the work might be daunting....oh wait you said you had media guides? it would be really tedious and I am not suggesting anyone actually do it at this juncture....any recurring 'theme' games.....yeah, there's the beanpot, so objections can begin right there, other schools also have 'theme' games.....anything that one could measure that indicates something about the relative level of fan / alumni support....one that is impossible to use would be the ratio of seats filled to seats available, both at home and on the road....

Saying that, I'm up for trying to hammer out a formula for best fan base.

First off, I think we should try to come up with a list of potential criteria. Here is kind of what we have so far:

Historical Books about Program
Attendance/Stadium Size
Alumni support (financial could be doable)
'Theme' Games
Some sort of metric for student sections

Any other ideas out there?