The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

New Jersey teaches you to be NASCAR drivers. Don't believe me? You have to turn left in traffic circles.

Jug handles are great. The trick is to floor it into the turn just as your light turns yellow and hope for the best!

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Wait, really? I know you don't have to parallel park on your road test (which blows me away), but there's zero drivers' ed? No wonder the drivers* in Tucson were so awful.

(* To be fair, the worst drivers in Tucson learned to drive in Santiago de Querétaro.)

Nothing required. There are places you can take your teenager to and pay for drivers ed on your own. But mandated through the schools. Not sure why it's that way, as it's a useful class that doesn't really take a lot of time to do, at least from what I recall.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Nothing required. There are places you can take your teenager to and pay for drivers ed on your own. But mandated through the schools. Not sure why it's that way, as it's a useful class that doesn't really take a lot of time to do, at least from what I recall.

In MD you put your kid in a private class because the certificate cuts the insurance rate substantially. The public school course did not (I don't know if that's statewide or reflects the fact that our local high school is the kind of place that produces meth addicts and Republican congressmen).

My wife's driver's test (AZ, 1985) consisted of the cop telling her to make a three-point turn on a highway while he tried to chat her up.

My first drivers test (NY, 1979) was half an hour long and had parallel parking, highway driving, and a five way intersection where during the test a truck blew the light and forced me the wrong way down a one-way street. I failed but he didn't give me a ticket because he said quote "yeah, it was probably either that or an accident, so I don't think you had a choice." (Well then pass me, *****er...) I remember going around a room in high school and showing by show of hands who passed and failed their first drivers test. It was something like 13 of 15 girls passed and all 20 guys failed.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In MD you put your kid in a private class because the certificate cuts the insurance rate substantially. The public school course did not (I don't know if that's statewide or reflects the fact that our local high school is the kind of place that produces meth addicts and Republican congressmen).

You mean your public high school is the kind of place that produces Democrats and Republican congressmen? Wow!

 

[jerphisch]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Nothing required. There are places you can take your teenager to and pay for drivers ed on your own. But mandated through the schools. Not sure why it's that way, as it's a useful class that doesn't really take a lot of time to do, at least from what I recall.

My wife went to HS in Phoenix in the early 90's and it was mandated then, progress. CO does not mandate it either, but when I was learning you could get a permit earlier if you took it.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Well said. In the end we are all influenced by our past , parents, etc. but we all reach points where we, either actively or passively, have to decide what we buy into and believe or not on our own.

From some of Shirtless Bob's past posts, I'm not sure some of the folks he's described being around him in "Christian" settings want him to explore and understand on his own, but rather just do as he is told and follow someone else's set of rules. I'd never support anyone who says you should blindly follow any belief system/religion/whatever without doing your own questioning and exploring and reading and discussing in whatever way you feel you need to.

Part of my problem is just that. Folks in "Christian" settings have told me:

-Working on Sunday is a sin.
-Marathon running is a sin.
-Running is my first love.
-Doubt is wrong.
-Skip the rest of your life, you need to be in church EVERY Sunday.
-I don't like large groups. As an introvert, I prefer small gatherings or one-on-one settings. I was told that was wrong.
-"I don't need to know how the world works and operates; it's all explained in the Bible."

But the kicker for me, and a statement that really pushed me to, if not over the edge, was this:

"You have severe clinical depression? That's God's will and he's punishing you for not praying enough and not going to church enough. In fact, if you would just attend church more often, it would magically cure all your mental illnesses."

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

"You have severe clinical depression? That's God's will and he's punishing you for not praying enough and not going to church enough. In fact, if you would just attend church more often, it would magically cure all your mental illnesses."

Even as a crusty old atheist I'll ride to the defense of religion on this. One notices, on observation of the world, that it contains a few morons. More than a few. Statistically, some of these morons will be religious, and that's how statements like the one above are made. I doubt the majority of religious people would say something so ignorant and misguided.

There is a deliberate suspension of the critical capacity in religious faith, verging on the frantic in the case of fundamentalism. But that doesn't mean those so suspending are stupid; they may simply be desperately seeking solace, order, or purpose -- the same motives that drive rational inquiry.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Part of my problem is just that. Folks in "Christian" settings have told me:

-Working on Sunday is a sin.
-Marathon running is a sin.
-Running is my first love.
-Doubt is wrong.
-Skip the rest of your life, you need to be in church EVERY Sunday.
-I don't like large groups. As an introvert, I prefer small gatherings or one-on-one settings. I was told that was wrong.
-"I don't need to know how the world works and operates; it's all explained in the Bible."

But the kicker for me, and a statement that really pushed me to, if not over the edge, was this:

"You have severe clinical depression? That's God's will and he's punishing you for not praying enough and not going to church enough. In fact, if you would just attend church more often, it would magically cure all your mental illnesses."

Whoever told you all this stuff hasn't a clue as to what is in the Bible or who Jesus is and how he sees us. Unfortunately there are some folks who don't know a Christianity beyond having to follow a set of rules that someone set up that often have little or nothing to do with the central tenets of the Bible and often, as it seems in your case, hinder others who are seeking. I don't know the details of your situation, but if it was me, I'd actively look to go somewhere else to get my Christian fellowship.

Really, I could walk through each one of those and talk about how nonsensical they are. The running one makes me think of Eric Liddell in Chariots of Fire. I've always liked this quote from the movie, as I think it's helpful in showing we can enjoy life and pursue a variety of activities and not just sit in a corner and read the bible all day long. "I believe God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast. And when I run I feel His pleasure." Some Christians don't seem to have found that balance in their life.


Hey, when you have Kepler riding to the defense of religion in any way, shape, or form, you know that the folks who are making these crazy statements are way, way off.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Part of my problem is just that. Folks in "Christian" settings have told me:

-Working on Sunday is a sin.
-Marathon running is a sin.
-Running is my first love.
-Doubt is wrong.
-Skip the rest of your life, you need to be in church EVERY Sunday.
-I don't like large groups. As an introvert, I prefer small gatherings or one-on-one settings. I was told that was wrong.
-"I don't need to know how the world works and operates; it's all explained in the Bible."

But the kicker for me, and a statement that really pushed me to, if not over the edge, was this:

"You have severe clinical depression? That's God's will and he's punishing you for not praying enough and not going to church enough. In fact, if you would just attend church more often, it would magically cure all your mental illnesses."

I agree with Bob, you are hanging around some messed up "Christians".

Shirtless, you are a beautiful human being and God loves you. You need to break away from these chains that are dragging you down and embrace the love that God has given you through the Gospel. Don't listen to these blowhards, listen to God.

How would the folks you are in fellowship with respond to this: My daughter, Maddy, to use a 1970's term, is ********. Would they say Maddy, myself or my wife are being punished by God by making Maddy the way she is? My answer is no, God's plan was to have Maddy be like this and to use Maddy (and all true believers) for the good of His work here on earth. I see God's plan in action with Maddy, I see the power of the Holy Spirit work through her and I see the glory of God in Maddy every day.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

And in any case, no matter how detached from reality Christians can become, they will always a run a distant second in the 5150 race.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In terms of being an introvert, didn't Jesus run in a small group and try to GET AWAY from crowds whenever he could help it?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In terms of being an introvert, didn't Jesus run in a small group and try to GET AWAY from crowds whenever he could help it?

I'd say it was a mixed bag. I don't think he generally sought out crowds, but certainly did spend time with big crowds that at times sought him out. But he also spent time with his small group of disciples, time at the home of Mary and Martha, as well as time alone communing with the Father, and probably other examples I'm not thinking of at the moment. In your situation, where you're being told that spending time in smaller groups and/or alone with God is wrong, that's just flat out contrary to what the bible shows about Jesus (and others). You can certainly be a Christian and be introverted or extroverted, though the extroverts probably are the ones that usually get most of the attention.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In terms of being an introvert, didn't Jesus run in a small group and try to GET AWAY from crowds whenever he could help it?

He also taught in the Temple, that's a extrovert action.

The beauty of God is you can worship/pray with other people or alone. God still hears you either way and your prayers and thoughts mean the same to Him.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

It's not the prayed to or the prayer, it's the praying. The rest is just scaffolding.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

It's not the prayed to or the prayer, it's the praying. The rest is just scaffolding.

If you're praying to a non-existent God, seems like you're wasting your time.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

If you're praying to a non-existent God, seems like you're wasting your time.

Everybody praying is praying to a non-existent God. The only reason it would matter is if you're praying to God to give you stuff, in which case just hold an auction, where you pray to whoever comes through with the most swag. (This is the Pascal's Wager level of cynical spirituality.) What else was "eternal life" but a trump card played by priests as the marketing discriminator for their God?

Men invented God, but men also invented chess, and chess isn't a waste of time unless you believe the way you play the game determines whether you go to heaven.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Everybody praying is praying to a non-existent God. The only reason it would matter is if you're praying to God to give you stuff, in which case just hold an auction, where you pray to whoever comes through with the most swag. (This is the Pascal's Wager level of cynical spirituality.) What else was "eternal life" but a trump card played by priests as the marketing discriminator for their God?

Men invented God, but men also invented chess, and chess isn't a waste of time unless you believe the way you play the game determines whether you go to heaven.

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying in the past post. I thought you were saying that the act of prayer is good on its own, regardless of whether the God you're praying to is real or the person/situation you're praying for is impacted. I was just saying that on a theoretical level, it makes sense to pray to a God that is real, not to a God that isn't real. I understand you think in the real world only the latter is true in all cases.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying in the past post. I thought you were saying that the act of prayer is good on its own, regardless of whether the God you're praying to is real or the person/situation you're praying for is impacted. I was just saying that on a theoretical level, it makes sense to pray to a God that is real, not to a God that isn't real. I understand you think in the real world only the latter is true in all cases.

In the real world of material existence, there are no Gods. But God is "real" in the sense of Durkheim's social fact. If you believe in something, that thing is "real" between your ears. All the effects of prayer are valid so long as the thing prayed to exists between your ears. You are right that praying to something you know doesn't exist is, well, a questionable pastime, like rooting for the Mets.

Prayer is self-hypnosis, and communal prayer can be an extremely powerful narcotic since it is reinforced wherever the praying person looks. The god that Puritans felt in their little churches in the wilderness was far more real to them than medicine or physics is to the average person today. To be truly filled with the grace, power, and potentiality of that God must have been fulfillment itself. To have that feeling reinforced in everyday life and throughout your society must have multiplied a man many times over in confidence, satisfaction, and the feeling of righteousness. That may have been the closest men have come to the sleep of the just.

It was "fake" in the sense that the literal statements of doctrine -- Adam & Eve, the prophesies, miracles, the virgin birth, the resurrection, the body and blood of Christ, the Reckoning, salvation, the Trinity -- are all nonsense. But it was purely real in its internal and social experience -- men lived a story they constantly recapitulated to one another, and purged anyone who wouldn't play along in order to keep the illusion going. What else is civilization than telling ourselves a story and then holding ourselves and each other to it?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

It's not the prayed to or the prayer, it's the praying. The rest is just scaffolding.

perhaps, though very few of us perform our worship services in front of a mirror....

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In the real world of material existence, there are no Gods. But God is "real" in the sense of Durkheim's social fact. If you believe in something, that thing is "real" between your ears. All the effects of prayer are valid so long as the thing prayed to exists between your ears. You are right that praying to something you know doesn't exist is, well, a questionable pastime, like rooting for the Mets.

Prayer is self-hypnosis, and communal prayer can be an extremely powerful narcotic since it is reinforced wherever the praying person looks. The god that Puritans felt in their little churches in the wilderness was far more real to them than medicine or physics is to the average person today. To be truly filled with the grace, power, and potentiality of that God must have been fulfillment itself. To have that feeling reinforced in everyday life and throughout your society must have multiplied a man many times over in confidence, satisfaction, and the feeling of righteousness. That may have been the closest men have come to the sleep of the just.

It was "fake" in the sense that the literal statements of doctrine -- Adam & Eve, the prophesies, miracles, the virgin birth, the resurrection, the body and blood of Christ, the Reckoning, salvation, the Trinity -- are all nonsense. But it was purely real in its internal and social experience -- men lived a story they constantly recapitulated to one another, and purged anyone who wouldn't play along in order to keep the illusion going. What else is civilization than telling ourselves a story and then holding ourselves and reach other to it?

I guess this falls into that category of us seeing things so differently that it's hard to talk about it. You've simply got a whole different construct of how you understand things so stuff falls into different slots.