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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I guess this falls into that category of us seeing things so differently that it's hard to talk about it. You've simply got a whole different construct of how you understand things so stuff falls into different slots.

One of the coolest things about talking to other people is, if you'll pardon the expression, exploring their slots. Kant was more right than he knew.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

One of the coolest things about talking to other people is, if you'll pardon the expression, exploring their slots. Kant was more right than he knew.
That's a lot harder to do on an internet message board. So much of how people communicate is beyond the typing of words.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

That's a lot harder to do on an internet message board. So much of how people communicate is beyond the typing of words.

It's what we've got.

I like to think that these forums may be bringing back some of the lost art of letter-writing. Or maybe it's something closer to those epistles that used to be written to be circulated among the congregations during the Apostolic age (encyclicals?).

What we reveal is only a fraction of what we are, but it's something, and for the people who try seriously there's camaraderie and something like friendship. Yes, any pairing of us could get to know more in one afternoon of meeting personally than 15 years of forum posts, but as Vladimir says, "it passes the time."
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There's a fundamental concept in logic call the contrapositive.

It is an identity: basically, if P --> Q, then automatically ~Q --> ~P.

Using this logic, one of the most persuasive arguments in favor of the existence of "god" is the prevalence of evil.

Anyone who tries to deny that evil is real is deluded, it seems to me. We have too much empirical evidence to show that some people take pleasure in the suffering of others.

At the same time, I cannot disagree with people who say there is no God. It's just that God is not "god."

"god" is sort of a hybrid between Lao Tzu, Karl Jung, and Erwin Shrodinger, so to speak. "god" may not necessarily have created the universe, and may perhaps "merely" be an artifact of the universe once created. One might say that "god" = Gaia except on a cosmic scale.



Once a circle is drawn, it has no beginning and no end....while a circle is being drawn, perhaps it is different....but how to tell in retrospect?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There's a fundamental concept in logic call the contrapositive.

It is an identity: basically, if P --> Q, then automatically ~Q --> ~P.

Using this logic, one of the most persuasive arguments in favor of the existence of "god" is the prevalence of evil.

Anyone who tries to deny that evil is real is deluded, it seems to me. We have too much empirical evidence to show that some people take pleasure in the suffering of others.

At the same time, I cannot disagree with people who say there is no God. It's just that God is not "god."

"god" is sort of a hybrid between Lao Tzu, Karl Jung, and Erwin Shrodinger, so to speak. "god" may not necessarily have created the universe, and may perhaps "merely" be an artifact of the universe once created. One might say that "god" = Gaia except on a cosmic scale.



Once a circle is drawn, it has no beginning and no end....while a circle is being drawn, perhaps it is different....but how to tell in retrospect?
<img src=http://www.cakewrecks.com/storage/what%20Venkman.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1355198032051></img>
No arguing with that flawless logic.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

A flute with no holes is not a flute. And a doughnut with no hole is a danish.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There's a fundamental concept in logic call the contrapositive.

It is an identity: basically, if P --> Q, then automatically ~Q --> ~P.

Using this logic, one of the most persuasive arguments in favor of the existence of "god" is the prevalence of evil.

Anyone who tries to deny that evil is real is deluded, it seems to me. We have too much empirical evidence to show that some people take pleasure in the suffering of others.

And what is evil anyways?
Is there reason to the rhyme?
For without evil there could be no good,
so it must be good to be evil sometimes.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

In the real world of material existence, there are no Gods. But God is "real" in the sense of Durkheim's social fact. If you believe in something, that thing is "real" between your ears. All the effects of prayer are valid so long as the thing prayed to exists between your ears. You are right that praying to something you know doesn't exist is, well, a questionable pastime, like rooting for the Mets.

Prayer is self-hypnosis, and communal prayer can be an extremely powerful narcotic since it is reinforced wherever the praying person looks. The god that Puritans felt in their little churches in the wilderness was far more real to them than medicine or physics is to the average person today. To be truly filled with the grace, power, and potentiality of that God must have been fulfillment itself. To have that feeling reinforced in everyday life and throughout your society must have multiplied a man many times over in confidence, satisfaction, and the feeling of righteousness. That may have been the closest men have come to the sleep of the just.

It was "fake" in the sense that the literal statements of doctrine -- Adam & Eve, the prophesies, miracles, the virgin birth, the resurrection, the body and blood of Christ, the Reckoning, salvation, the Trinity -- are all nonsense. But it was purely real in its internal and social experience -- men lived a story they constantly recapitulated to one another, and purged anyone who wouldn't play along in order to keep the illusion going. What else is civilization than telling ourselves a story and then holding ourselves and reach other to it?

More positioning as reality than we usually see from a personal belief system. The only guaranteed reality are the actions people take from faith and their outcomes.

Anyone who tries to deny that evil is real is deluded, it seems to me. We have too much empirical evidence to show that some people take pleasure in the suffering of others.

Many really bad outcomes might be defined as 'really bad outcomes' rather than evil. I think it comes down to intention. I'm not sure that natural disasters or sheer incompetence...even mental incompetence...are evil. In modern western society, it mostly appears to come down to extreme cases of putting one's self interest in front of that of others. Based on his advancing of the golden rule, Jesus was a hundred steps ahead of us on this one.

To sum, the existence of evil is often just a 'really bad outcome' for individuals and/or is based on one's perceptions of self interest.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Many really bad outcomes might be defined as 'really bad outcomes' rather than evil. I think it comes down to intention. I'm not sure that natural disasters or sheer incompetence...even mental incompetence...are evil. In modern western society, it mostly appears to come down to extreme cases of putting one's self interest in front of that of others. Based on his advancing of the golden rule, Jesus was a hundred steps ahead of us on this one.

To sum, the existence of evil is often just a 'really bad outcome' for individuals and/or is based on one's perceptions of self interest.

I meant "evil" as applied solely to human activity, the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on others for one's own personal gratification.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

More positioning as reality than we usually see from a personal belief system. The only guaranteed reality are the actions people take from faith and their outcomes.

"You are what you do."

But it's still not a guarantee. Three men commit murder out of a sense of justice: one because he believes he has a right to unrestrained freedom, the second because he believes the victim is possessed by the devil, the third because he believes the victim has dishonored his daughter. The outcomes are identical, and yet we feel a personal belief system grounded on "justice" is still a pretty good start -- it's certainly not wholly invalidated by these actions.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I meant "evil" as applied solely to human activity, the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on others for one's own personal gratification.

I think you're confusing sadism with evil.

However: arguendo, what has that to do with God? Since you are locating the agency within a person (the one being gratified), no supernatural hypothesis is required.

Good and evil are not entities, they are comparatives. The fallacy of God and the devil is mistaking adjectives for nouns.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There's a fundamental concept in logic call the contrapositive.

It is an identity: basically, if P --> Q, then automatically ~Q --> ~P.

Using this logic, one of the most persuasive arguments in favor of the existence of "god" is the prevalence of evil.
Nope. Not even close to persuasive.

In Venn diagram terms, you're saying that the circle for "existence of god" (P) is entirely contained within the circle for "existence of good" (Q). That is, if god exists then good will definitely exist. However, none of those circles have *anything* to do with the existence of evil. The space outside of the "existence of good" circle is "good does not exist" which is an entirely different statement than "evil does exist." The existence of evil would be a 3rd independent circle (R) which has not been constrained in any way by your "if P then Q" premise - it could overlap with Q, with both P and Q, or with neither of them. If it overlaps with Q at all, then there will absolutely, 100% be cases where both good and evil would exist without god (Q and R and ~P) regardless of whether R also overlaps with P. In other words, the existence of evil is in no way related to the existence of god.

What pseudo-intellectual wannabe theologian did you lift that cacology from?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I meant "evil" as applied solely to human activity, the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on others for one's own personal gratification.

Some (although not me) would believe that evil is very common, for example when they are tempted by lust...there is some evil at work. The definition you are applying is extremely narrow (although I wouldn't debate it) and would seem to me to be the type of evil that few in modern western society encounter in their entire lives.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

If one opens it up to temptation, then might as well include all 124 from the New Testament:


1. Abusers of Self: Self polluters, having unnatural lusts

2. Adultery (Note: Only for those who have been married)

3. Anger

4. Backbiters: Those whospeak evil of those who are absent

5. Banqueting: A drinking party

6. Becoming a Stumbling Block to a Weak Brother Through Our Liberty: Taking liberty to do things without thinking of the effect on a weaker brother's conscience.

7. Being Angry With One's Brother: Expressing unkind thought or action toward others

8. Bitterness

9. Blasphemy

10. Boasting

11. Brawling

12. Brother Going to Law Against Brother: No definition given, so I'll wing it. Bringing legal action against another. If someone has a better definition, please let me know.

13. Burying our Talents: Not making wise use of what God gave us

14. Calling One's Brother A Fool: Ridiculing another

15. Chambering: Unmarried people living and sleeping together

16. Clamor: Loud, continued noises

17. Complaining

18. Contentious:Quarrelsome

19. Corrupt Communications:Unprofitable or impure language

20. Covenant Breakers: Lightly breaking a solemn or legal pact.

21. Covetousness

22. Craftiness: Cunningness

23. Debate

24. Deceit

25. Defiling the Body

26. Defraud

27. Denying Christ

28. Desiring the Praise of Men: Doing things to gain praise.

29. Despiteful

30. Dishonesty

31. Disobedience to Parents

32. Divisions: Forming splits or schisms in groups

33. Divorce

34. Double Tongued: Making insincere statements

35. Drunkenness

36. Eating the Bread, or Drinking The Lord's Cup Unworthily: Taking communion while living in sin

37. Effeminate: Unmanly or womanish man.

38. Emulations: Ambition to excel

39. Envy

40. Evil Concupiscence: Longing or desire for forbidden things.

41. Evil Eye: Having selfish motives

42. Evil Thoughts: Worthless, injurious, or depraved thoughts

43. Extortion

44. Fathers Provoking Children to Wrath: Frustrating children through harsh treatment and/or failure to communicate.

45. Fearful: Discouraged, anxious, faithless

46. Filthiness

47. Filthy Lucre: Recieving personal gain through unrighteousness.

48. Finding Faults With Others While Having a Greater Fault Ourself

49. Foolishness

50. Foolish talking : Silliness.

51. Giving False Witness

52. Fornication

53. Giving Offense: Causing another to fall spiritually by our example.

54. Greediness

55. Guile: Deceit

56. Haters of God

57. Hatred

58. Having Evil Treasures in the Heart: (The definition doesn't make any more sense).

59. Having Pleasure in Them That Do Things Worthy of Death: Enjoying the company of sinners.

60. Hearing the Sayings of Christ, but Not Following Them

61. Heresies: Religious opinion different from established Scripture.

62. Highmindedness: Arrogant

63. Hypocrisy

64. Idle Words: Words of no value.

65. Idolatry: Loving someone or something more than God.

66. Implacable: Refusing to be appeased

67. Inordinate Affection: Passion, lust.

68. Inventors of Evil Things: Those who contrive evil ways to satisfy their carnal lusts.

69. Jesting: Talking to make others laugh.

70. Judging

71. Knowing to Do Good, but Doing it Not

72. Lasciviousness: Lustful, wanton, exciting lust.

73. Laying Up Treasures on Earth: Pursuing material success at the expense of spiritual things.

74. Living in Pleasure: Fond of luxury and sensual pleasure/gratification.

75. Lovers of Self

76. Loving Another Person More Than Jesus

77. Lusting After a Woman

78. Lying

79. Maliciousness

80. Malignity: Being harmful or dangerous, bad character.

81. A Man Prophesying or Praying With His Head Covered.

82. Mockery

83. Murder

84. Murmering: Grumbling, secretly complaining

85. Presumptious

86. Pride: Self esteem.

87. Puffed Up: Overestimating of one's ability or knowledge.

88. Purloining

89. Railing: Slander

90. Revellings: Overindulgence at feasts, merrymaking.

91. Rioting

92. Seditions: Stirring up opposition against authority.

93. Self Will: Arrogant

94. Speaking Against the Holy Ghost

95. Sorcery: Practicing magic with aid from evil spirits.

96. Speaking Evil of Dignities: Speaking ill of those to be honored.

97. Stealing

98. Stiff-Necked and Uncircumcised in Hearts and Ears: Obstinate

99. Strife: Quarreling, seeking superiority

100. Striker: Ready to Fight

101. Swearing: To take oath (as in court).

102. Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of Men: Neglecting God's commandments by manmade interpretation or commandments.

103. Traitors

104. Trusting in Riches

105. Not Entering by the Door Into the Sheepfold: Seeking salvation through means other than the blood of Christ.

106. Unbelief: Lack of faith.

107. Uncleanness

108. Unforgiving Heart

109. Unmerciful

110. Unrighteousness: Moral wrongfulness.

111. Unthankfulness

112. Vain Jangling: Babbling.

113. Variance: Strife

114. Voluntary Humility: False humilty.

115. Wantonness: Lustful, morally unrestrained.

116. Whisperers: Secretly spreading false or slanderous information.

117. Whoremongers:One who associates with whores, a male prostitute.

118. Witchcraft

119. Wickedness: Evil practices, crime.

120. Without Normal Affection: Hardhearted.

121. Without Understanding: Unwise

122. Wrath

123. Woman Cutting Her Hair

124. Woman Prophesying or Praying With Her Head Uncovered
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Mainstream unbiased source on that one? Although several Greek words were translated as evil in the middle ages...the modern day English word evil has changed to be far more extreme. Of various Biblical Greek words to give negative connotation, poneros is probably the worst...and today is defined first and foremost as just 'bad'.

The list is pretty silly list to begin with...but with the changed definition of evil it's doubly so.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There is an acid test for the existence of God, and it will come next weekend. If the Sioux fail to win a banner, that will be conclusive evidence that there is no god--at least a just one.

If the Sioux win, I suppose that still leaves open the possibility that there is no god, but the chances would have to increase quite a bit, it seems to me.

Go God!
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

There is an acid test for the existence of God, and it will come next weekend. If the Sioux fail to win a banner, that will be conclusive evidence that there is no god--at least a just one.

If the Sioux win, I suppose that still leaves open the possibility that there is no god, but the chances would have to increase quite a bit, it seems to me.

Go God!

I'd have thought God would have the Friars' back? He already handed them a providential regional.

I'll show myself out.
 
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