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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

This here's a boy who hasn't tried to study Aquinas.

I know what you're saying, and at the simple, teleological level you are 100% correct.

But as with everything, the beauty is in the details. You could as easily say, science is easy because the answer is always "Cuz that's the way it is." :p
Bzzzzzzt. You fail Science 101. For any question that you'd be tempted to answer "Cuz that's the way it is," the actual, correct answer is, "We don't know - yet - and I'm really curious to find out."
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

For any question that you'd be tempted to answer "Cuz that's the way it is," the actual, correct answer is, "We don't know - yet - and I'm really curious to find out."

You're quoting my pastor here.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Bzzzzzzt. You fail Science 101. For any question that you'd be tempted to answer "Cuz that's the way it is," the actual, correct answer is, "We don't know - yet - and I'm really curious to find out."

No, that's the answer to HOW it happens. WHY it happens is outside the realm of science, which is why people are free to make up any answer they want. (Spoiler: there are no whys. There is no purpose.)

Q: HOW does gravity work? A: The gravitational attraction force between two point masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their separation distance. The force is always attractive and acts along the line joining them.

Q: WHY does gravity work? A: Cuz that's the way it is.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

No, that's the answer to HOW it happens. WHY it happens is outside the realm of science, which is why people are free to make up any answer they want. (Spoiler: there are no whys. There is no purpose.)

Q: HOW does gravity work? A: The gravitational attraction force between two point masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their separation distance. The force is always attractive and acts along the line joining them.

Q: WHY does gravity work? A: Cuz that's the way it is.
Nonsense. That used to be the answer to why the sun rises and sets, too. And why light passes through some objects but not others. And pretty much every other scientific principle you can name.

Why gravity works is just a question that hasn't been answered yet. And if/when we find the more fundamental layer of reality that causes gravity to exist (identifying the Higgs was a step along that journey), then we'll have a whole host of "why" questions about that layer, and so on.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

No, that's the answer to HOW it happens. WHY it happens is outside the realm of science, which is why people are free to make up any answer they want. (Spoiler: there are no whys. There is no purpose.)

Q: HOW does gravity work? A: The gravitational attraction force between two point masses is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of their separation distance. The force is always attractive and acts along the line joining them.

Q: WHY does gravity work? A: Cuz that's the way it is.

You're treading dangerously close to the sort of arguments advanced by "intelligent design" advocates, except replace "that's the way it is" with "because God."
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You're treading dangerously close to the sort of arguments advanced by "intelligent design" advocates, except replace "that's the way it is" with "because God."

Not in the least. ID is just the latest doomed attempt to save one very specific teleology -- the Christian extension of Abrahamic supernaturalism-- by muddying the scientific waters. My point is science completely punts on the issue of the why. The difference: if an IDer says God made the world a scientific "refutation" isn't possible, because you can take the entire train of material processes and then stick a "because God" at the end of it, and you're fine (just as you're fine to stick a "cuz that's the way it is" or "for no purpose at all" at the end of it). But if an IDer says God made the world in seven days, science immediately smacks him to the curb because he's talking empirically demonstrable rot.

There's nowhere really to go with the WHYs except crawl back up one's own anus, whether that anus is religion or magic pixies or worshiping Nature or whatever. Well, there's one other solution: you can become a radical positivist and say "all the WHYs are just gibberish," but then you'll be creepy and the girls won't talk to you.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Nonsense. That used to be the answer to why the sun rises and sets, too. And why light passes through some objects but not others. And pretty much every other scientific principle you can name.

Why gravity works is just a question that hasn't been answered yet. And if/when we find the more fundamental layer of reality that causes gravity to exist (identifying the Higgs was a step along that journey), then we'll have a whole host of "why" questions about that layer, and so on.

No, you're confusing why and how because in English they can get used interchangeably. "Why" is Aristotle's final cause. "How" are the other three causes, and that's all science can talk about. One of the great breaks in the history of science was the severing of "why" from the project. Through the medieval period "scientists" were very comfortable saying that things were "intended." This was perfectly natural in a god-haunted world. The break came when people started to say that sugar can make you fat, not that its purpose is to make you fat.

I'll retreat a tiny bit: Evo Bio has sort of "annexed" why statements onto how statements. So, "why does a tiger run fast? " is an admissible statement and it's kind of like a traditional why statement. But of course there's no forethought to the tiger's speed, it's a consequence of natural selection. So really it's not an exception, unless you really water down your why.

I expect more from my Whys.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

No, you're confusing why and how because in English they can get used interchangeably. "Why" is Aristotle's final cause. "How" are the other three causes, and that's all science can talk about. One of the great breaks in the history of science was the severing of "why" from the project. Through the medieval period "scientists" were very comfortable saying that things were "intended." This was perfectly natural in a god-haunted world. The break came when people started to say that sugar can make you fat, not that its purpose is to make you fat.

I'll retreat a tiny bit: Evo Bio has sort of "annexed" why statements onto how statements. So, "why does a tiger run fast? " is an admissible statement and it's kind of like a traditional why statement. But of course there's no forethought to the tiger's speed, it's a consequence of natural selection. So really it's not an exception, unless you really water down your why.

I expect more from my Whys.
I almost put "but we're just arguing over usage of the word "why" at the end of my last post... :)

"What is the intended purpose of X" is just one, pretty narrow, usage of the word - and it begs the question, because it presupposes that there is an intelligence with an intent behind X. I can ask, "why does my car have windshield wipers?" in that way, because there really is a human (assuming we stipulate the reality of human existence) who put them there for some purpose. You can't even ask that question without an a priori assumption that there is an intelligence who foresaw the purpose, so to me, it's a supremely uninteresting question to ask when it comes to natural phenomenon. The answer is always, "because god." Yawn.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The answer is always, "because god." Yawn.

Well, I'll defend the "because God" crowd a little because of my fascination with medieval philosophy. Even if you've stuck "because God" as the end of the infinite series, that doesn't preclude some really interesting thinking about the earlier steps. Also, we tend to associate "because God" with stupid people because since the bifurcation of science and philosophy, well, it kind of deserves it. But prior to that division, EVERY* really smart person was also sticking "because God" on the end of all his thinking. So in and of itself it doesn't render interesting thinking impossible. It's just that, since the division, choosing "because God" as an overriding claim means actively discarding conflicting knowledge.

It's a selection bias problem -- you couldn't tell anything about people from NYC in the 19th century because that's where immigrants came in. Now you can tell they're jerks because they have other choices and yet persist in being there. :)

(* well, not every. There have always been materialists, and the Greeks weren't having any of this purpose nonsense til Plato showed up. But you get my statistical drift.)
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Parents aren't omnipotent.
Oh really? :) Tell that to a 10 year old.

But parents love their children, get angry when the kids screw up, and always welcome them with open arms.
OK, should. There are some that never get the memo. They're sperm donors/egg providers, not parents
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Oh really? :) Tell that to a 10 year old.

But parents love their children, get angry when the kids screw up, and always welcome them with open arms.
OK, should. There are some that never get the memo. They're sperm donors/egg providers, not parents

OK. Judging by those standards, maybe I was part sperm donor.

But I liked my job. :)
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Well, I'll defend the "because God" crowd a little because of my fascination with medieval philosophy. Even if you've stuck "because God" as the end of the infinite series, that doesn't preclude some really interesting thinking about the earlier steps. Also, we tend to associate "because God" with stupid people because since the bifurcation of science and philosophy, well, it kind of deserves it. But prior to that division, EVERY* really smart person was also sticking "because God" on the end of all his thinking. So in and of itself it doesn't render interesting thinking impossible. It's just that, since the division, choosing "because God" as an overriding claim means actively discarding conflicting knowledge.

It's a selection bias problem -- you couldn't tell anything about people from NYC in the 19th century because that's where immigrants came in. Now you can tell they're jerks because they have other choices and yet persist in being there. :)

(* well, not every. There have always been materialists, and the Greeks weren't having any of this purpose nonsense til Plato showed up. But you get my statistical drift.)

"Because god" was a great way to not end up "in jail" or "dead".
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

"Because god" was a great way to not end up "in jail" or "dead".

That doesn't fully explain it. It's true that atheists have to fake religiosity when they live in theocracies. But it's also true that people are the product of their time, and even smart people's mental shorelines are carved out as much by external as internal forces.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

As for church:

I get that Hebrews 10:25 says "let us not give up meeting together," yes. But the idea that it has to be in a particular building, at a certain time, on a certain day? Isn't that an idea put there by man?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

As for church:

I get that Hebrews 10:25 says "let us not give up meeting together," yes. But the idea that it has to be in a particular building, at a certain time, on a certain day? Isn't that an idea put there by man?

Man has nothing to do with it. It's the Word of God.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

As for church:

I get that Hebrews 10:25 says "let us not give up meeting together," yes. But the idea that it has to be in a particular building, at a certain time, on a certain day? Isn't that an idea put there by man?
You are correct. The fact that the focus is on being in a pew on sunday morning each week falls far short of what is intended here and is one of those western/American concepts that isn't really what was meant in the verse you reference. The essence is that there is a lot of value in gathering together, whether it be sunday morning at a building, Saturday morning on golf course, Wednesday night for dinner, or whatever.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You are correct. The fact that the focus is on being in a pew on sunday morning each week falls far short of what is intended here and is one of those western/American concepts that isn't really what was meant in the verse you reference. The essence is that there is a lot of value in gathering together, whether it be sunday morning at a building, Saturday morning on golf course, Wednesday night for dinner, or whatever.

And given what I've read on church history (book of Acts, etc), says that the early Church met in people's homes, in the public square, and when government persecution came, they were driven to the catacombs.

One Sunday morning, I was running, and I saw "church on the beach." A group had pitched a tent and held their service right there on the Pere Marquette (Muskegon) beach... I thought that was cool.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

And given what I've read on church history (book of Acts, etc), says that the early Church met in people's homes, in the public square, and when government persecution came, they were driven to the catacombs.

One Sunday morning, I was running, and I saw "church on the beach." A group had pitched a tent and held their service right there on the Pere Marquette (Muskegon) beach... I thought that was cool.
Yes, a lot of people through history for various reasons couldn't meet in a church building on sunday mornings, whether due to persecution, lack of money to build a building, lack of having enough other believers around to have a big sunday meeting in a building, etc. Unfortunately an all too large slice of American Christianity measures how well a person is doing in their walk by whether they attend a sunday morning meeting weekly or not. Attending a sunday morning meeting doesn't necessarily mean one is doing well or poorly in their walk or even believes in Jesus. But, again, I do think that the verse you reference makes the important point that getting together with other believers in some manner as best works for a person is valuable and important. How we each do that is first and fundamentally between each of us and God.
 
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