The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Also, in terms of heaven and hell, I'm starting to think that one's an empty promise, the other is an empty threat.

"Be good and believe in Jesus and you'll go to a place with streets of gold and pearly gates when you die!"

"If you're a horrible person and have dismissed the notion of Jesus as Lord, you'll be sent to place of fire, brimstone, and weeping and gnashing of teeth when you die!"

And talking to some people, they believe the movie "Heaven Is For Real" is a documentary.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

"Heaven is For Real" the movie is based on a book that tells the real life experiences of a boy and his family in Nebraska. I'm sure there are some people who won't believe the story is real, given its content. I personally thought the rainbow colored horse was fun.

If heaven were about golden streets and pearly gates, I'd have no interest.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Also, in terms of heaven and hell, I'm starting to think that one's an empty promise, the other is an empty threat.

And it only happens after you die.

"Heaven is For Real" the movie is based on a book that tells the real life experiences of a boy and his family in Nebraska. I'm sure there are some people who won't believe the story is real, given its content. I personally thought the rainbow colored horse was fun.

If heaven were about golden streets and pearly gates, I'd have no interest.

Bob is of course lying. (shocking I know!) But let nothing get in the way of the xtian profit machine and spreading their herp derp message while not even giving kick backs to the kid they are profiting off of.

http://www.people.com/article/alex-malarkey-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-hoax

Edit

Bob was not in fact "lying" about the story he mentioned, there are two books that share almost the exact same story but one kid/parent have a little bit more integrity than the other.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

An excellent debate on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0YtL5eiBYw

"If consciousness is just the workings of neurons and synapses, how do we explain the phenomenon of near-death experience? By some accounts, about 3% of the U.S. population has had one: an out-of-body experience often characterized by remarkable visions and feelings of peace and joy, all while the physical body is close to death. To skeptics, there are more plausible, natural explanations, like oxygen deprivation. Is the prospect of an existence after death "real" and provable by science, or a construct of wishful thinking about our own mortality?"

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I see the angriest poster on USCHO follows me around again (Foxton, not WW). Sad really.


WW, do you believe it is possible that there are realities that are not provable by science? Is there anything you believe to be true that has not been verified by science?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

And it only happens after you die.



Bob is of course lying. (shocking I know!) But let nothing get in the way of the xtian profit machine and spreading their herp derp message while not even giving kick backs to the kid they are profiting off of.

http://www.people.com/article/alex-malarkey-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-hoax

Is he lying about his opinion? Or is he lying because he believed the story that the kid gave everyone was his honest memory? Lying denotes intent, an intent to deceive. It's a fairly hefty word you're tossing around so casually there.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

"If you're a horrible person and have dismissed the notion of Jesus as Lord, you'll be sent to place of fire, brimstone, and weeping and gnashing of teeth when you die!"

"...but, he loves you."

-George Carlin

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Is he lying about his opinion? Or is he lying because he believed the story that the kid gave everyone was his honest memory? Lying denotes intent, an intent to deceive. It's a fairly hefty word you're tossing around so casually there.

If he's not purposely lying then perhaps he would... recant his sincere testimony that it's based on a true story now that he should be informed that it's fake.

Surely if he cared at all about being truthful he wouldn't want to make false statements then hide behind them as though it being an "opinion" puts it beyond reproach.

Edit
Nice to see bob admit fault. Now if only it wasn't his MO to sit behind false and fallacious arguments. an example

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Is he lying about his opinion? Or is he lying because he believed the story that the kid gave everyone was his honest memory? Lying denotes intent, an intent to deceive. It's a fairly hefty word you're tossing around so casually there.

Something like what happens in a claimed after life experience is something that, apart from obvious factual errors or something of that sort, can't be necessarily proved to be real or not. Looks like this particular one (meaning The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey to clear up Foxton's confusion) was not for real. The dad should be ashamed of himself if what's being reported is true. Courageous kid. Of course it's one thing to see a movie or read a book like this and find it an interesting story and consider whether it could be real or not. It's another to base one's beliefs on such a thing, which of course would be unwise at best.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Actually it looks like there are two books that have been confused here by Foxton. I'm not familiar with The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey, which is what Foxton seems to be in a snit about. The one I and shirtless mentioned is Heaven is For Real by Todd Burpo.

Foxton got confused (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't purposely be misleading) and started talking about a totally different book, The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey. So, Foxton is off on a side trail somewhere talking about a different book and situation than shirtless raised and I responded to.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Actually it looks like there are two books that have been confused here by Foxton. I'm not familiar with The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey, which is what Foxton seems to be in a snit about. The one I and shirtless mentioned is Heaven is For Real by Todd Burpo.

Foxton got confused (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't purposely be misleading) and started talking about a totally different book, The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey. So, Foxton is off on a side trail somewhere talking about a different book and situation than shirtless raised and I responded to.

Holy **** how many of these **** books are there?

link mentioning a list

My Journey to Heaven: What I Saw and How It Changed My Life, by Marvin J. Besteman; Flight to Heaven: A Plane Crash . . .A Lone Survivor . . .A Journey to Heaven—and Back, by Dale Black; To Heaven and Back: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Her Death, Heaven, Angels, and Life Again: A True Story, by Mary Neal; 90 Minutes in Heaven: A True Story of Death and Life, by Don Piper; Nine Days In Heaven, by Dennis Prince; 23 Minutes In Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in that Place of Torment,

In this case I did get sidetracked by the similarities between the two stories, they do get mentioned together in the same breath for most links. But I still stand behind Bob being a liar, but lack a way to show a direct link in this case. Good examples though are anytime he tries to paint planned parenthood as some kind of baby murder factory practicing eugenics.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Also, in terms of heaven and hell, I'm starting to think that one's an empty promise, the other is an empty threat.

If you participate...really participate, then you the individual gets real benefits while your alive. This in the form of inner contentment and outward community that I can assure you is quite a real experience. Often non-Christians say and believe that they can behave 'good' and get the same personal benefits. First, they often just don't and only think they are behaving in a similar manner...and second, if they do manage it then from what I can tell most don't get the same experience. Most feel very different, improved, after starting to participate as a Christian.

Unfortunately years before, strains of Christians have tended to use this as a way to explain the benefits of participating. Unlike others of faith, I don't need to know if heaven will happen as tangible benefits are in abundance right now.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

WW, do you believe it is possible that there are realities that are not provable by science? Is there anything you believe to be true that has not been verified by science?

I swear I am not trying to be rude but I do not know how to make sense of your question. My definition of reality, simply, is things that exist. I would argue there is only one (or to move forward philosophically, we assume there is only one) and we each have our own, imperfect view of it.

Science does not prove anything. It is a way of knowing and I would argue by far the best way of knowing. All of its "knowledge" is provisional, subject to revision. Even if we are not capable currently (or ever in the case of our place in the cosmic timescale), I think it can be applied to any area of reality, given the correct terms, the correct question, and the correct methods. Science done correctly side-steps our individual views. The facts are there whether you believe it or not and are reproducible by people of all backgrounds.

Every single person believes things not verified by evidence. However, I consider everything I believe in to be provisional and subject to revision if sufficient evidence were to present itself. I am open to being wrong about everything I believe in, but you have to show me.

Something like what happens in a claimed after life experience is something that, apart from obvious factual errors or something of that sort, can't be necessarily proved to be real or not. Looks like this particular one (meaning The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven by Kevin Malarkey to clear up Foxton's confusion) was not for real. The dad should be ashamed of himself if what's being reported is true. Courageous kid. Of course it's one thing to see a movie or read a book like this and find it an interesting story and consider whether it could be real or not. It's another to base one's beliefs on such a thing, which of course would be unwise at best.

Watch the debate I linked. It will not change your mind, but it should show you the type of conversation scientists have about this, the type of research that is being done. It is a short two hours.

On a side note, I think some of the strongest evidence against NDE or traveling to "heaven" is that people of different cultures describe experiences that fit within their cultural norms. You do not hear of Hindus having global cerebral hypoxia and seeing Jesus.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Also, in terms of heaven and hell, I'm starting to think that one's an empty promise, the other is an empty threat.

"Be good and believe in Jesus and you'll go to a place with streets of gold and pearly gates when you die!"

"If you're a horrible person and have dismissed the notion of Jesus as Lord, you'll be sent to place of fire, brimstone, and weeping and gnashing of teeth when you die!"

It's up to you to decide from reading the Bible if Heaven or Hell are nothing but empty promises. If you decide to dismiss the entire idea of Heaven and Hell, and you are wrong, that's quite a long term problem you have now. Being a believer is a no risk/no penalty situation.

FYI being good in itself does not gain you entrance into Heaven, it's all about believing in Jesus and being a repentant sinner. Even living a horrible life does not exclude you from Heaven, as long as at some point in life you come to believe and repent.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FYI being good in itself does not gain you entrance into Heaven, it's all about believing in Jesus and being a repentant sinner. Even living a horrible life does not exclude you from Heaven, as long as at some point in life you come to believe and repent.

I believe this is where my faith starts to depart from that of others. Timothy, correct me if I'm wrong. What you mention above is certainly a Biblical position. Was it advanced by Paul only...or was it specifically advanced by Jesus at some point? Jesus did say 'faith without works is dead'...and based on my faith, Jesus always trumps.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

It's up to you to decide from reading the Bible if Heaven or Hell are nothing but empty promises. If you decide to dismiss the entire idea of Heaven and Hell, and you are wrong, that's quite a long term problem you have now. Being a believer is a no risk/no penalty situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
You need to make so very many assumptions to come to the conclusion that "Being a believer is a no risk/no penalty situation."

"Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. . .Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless God wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy."

Pascal's Wager has very little sway outside of those that already believe.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

If there's nothing after we die, then our time on earth is all the more precious and someone who goes to church every Sunday will have wasted a non-trivial portion of it chasing something that turned out to be false. Does not sound like a no-risk situation to me.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FYI being good in itself does not gain you entrance into Heaven, it's all about believing in Jesus and being a repentant sinner. Even living a horrible life does not exclude you from Heaven, as long as at some point in life you come to believe and repent.

The Pope seems to disagree.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Guys

As the Dead Thread says - Let God sort 'em out!

I happen to believe (because I am Roman Catholic) that when I die, I will render an accounting of my life to Christ who will tell me, "Yes", "No" or "Wait a while". It's the "No" part that scares the heck out of me. Therefore I try to keep from doing things that would cause a "No" answer.

If I was a Hindi, I'd believe differently.

But, because of who I am, and what I believe, I try to live according to the teaching of my Faith.

You can believe differently. At the Final Judgment, I hope we're together in Heaven.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I swear I am not trying to be rude but I do not know how to make sense of your question. My definition of reality, simply, is things that exist. I would argue there is only one (or to move forward philosophically, we assume there is only one) and we each have our own, imperfect view of it.

Science does not prove anything. It is a way of knowing and I would argue by far the best way of knowing. All of its "knowledge" is provisional, subject to revision. Even if we are not capable currently (or ever in the case of our place in the cosmic timescale), I think it can be applied to any area of reality, given the correct terms, the correct question, and the correct methods. Science done correctly side-steps our individual views. The facts are there whether you believe it or not and are reproducible by people of all backgrounds.

Every single person believes things not verified by evidence. However, I consider everything I believe in to be provisional and subject to revision if sufficient evidence were to present itself. I am open to being wrong about everything I believe in, but you have to show me.



Watch the debate I linked. It will not change your mind, but it should show you the type of conversation scientists have about this, the type of research that is being done. It is a short two hours.

On a side note, I think some of the strongest evidence against NDE or traveling to "heaven" is that people of different cultures describe experiences that fit within their cultural norms. You do not hear of Hindus having global cerebral hypoxia and seeing Jesus.

Well, this response helps me understand your views on things and how you understand things. An explains why we've crossed wires a good bit recently. I'll leave it at that. Thanks.


Next time I have a short two hours available with no family or other callings on my time, I'll try to take a look at your video.