The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Abstinence is murder.

So is Pull-'n'-Pray.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

So is Pull-'n'-Pray.

We called it Spray-'N-Pray.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I believe the term you are looking for is, "cheap shot."

OK, I'll buy that.

So you will now decry your side's relentless and ubiquitous use of late term abortion as a rhetorical scare tactic and a deliberate attempt to undermine an intelligent discussion of the topic with appeals to emotion by using statistically rare and indeed irrelevant cases.

Right?

Late term abortions wouldn't be discussed if liberals would vote to ban them, as they should. Your guys leave the issue on the table by opposing bans or limitations on them due to their blind adherence to their liberal cause. If you want to make your point, late term abortions are a really bad example to use. To me being in support of late term abortions, where kids' development is so far along it's hard to kill them, is one of the more unconscionable positions a politician can take.

And the difference of course is that in the situation you bring up involves lives being lost. The situation I was talking about was purposely misrepresenting how most people are by trying to paint them as all being like a few outliers who have little to nothing in common with the rest of the folks. So, not really that comparable is my reaction.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Spin nothing. I was being highly sarcastic. But you know that, since you've chosen to immortalize sarcasm in your sig file.

Actually my sig file was from a discussion where we were in full agreement on an issue. Rare, but it does happen.

 

[unofan]

Late term abortions wouldn't be discussed if liberals would vote to ban them, as they should. Your guys leave the issue on the table by opposing bans or limitations on them due to their blind adherence to their liberal cause. If you want to make your point, late term abortions are a really bad example to use. To me being in support of late term abortions, where kids' development is so far along it's hard to kill them, is one of the more unconscionable positions a politician can take.

And the difference of course is that in the situation you bring up involves lives being lost. The situation I was talking about was purposely misrepresenting how most people are by trying to paint them as all being like a few outliers who have little to nothing in common with the rest of the folks. So, not really that comparable is my reaction.

Late term abortions are only performed where something has gone seriously wrong and the mother's life is in danger. They aren't a form of birth control, despite what your propaganda is telling you.

are you really arguing that the mother should have no recourse other than death?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Late term abortions wouldn't be discussed if liberals would vote to ban them, as they should. Your guys leave the issue on the table by opposing bans or limitations on them due to their blind adherence to their liberal cause. If you want to make your point, late term abortions are a really bad example to use. To me being in support of late term abortions, where kids' development is so far along it's hard to kill them, is one of the more unconscionable positions a politician can take.

especially given that, in this day and age, one can keep the child alive and put him/her up for adoption. If the woman wants the unborn child removed from her womb before childbirth, that's fine; just don't kill it upon removal. I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of social welfare organizations that would care for and raise that child.

Notice that in the Gosnell verdict, he was convicted of three counts of first-degree murder. So at least there is one police officer, one prosecutor, and twelve ordinary citizens who agree that late term abortion is murder.

Recall also that Scott Peterson was convicted of two counts of murder, one for his wife and one for their unborn child.

I thought part of Roe v Wade was to say late-term abortions aren't okay?? or did they merely say that it was okay to ban them??


PS I guess the abortion-specific thread didn't stick, eh? so it goes.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I thought part of Roe v Wade was to say late-term abortions aren't okay?? or did they merely say that it was okay to ban them??

the short, short, short version: It said states can regulate abortions as long as they don't unreasonably restrict access to a woman's right to abortion.

Everything since then has been to try to determine how far right-wing leaning states can go before their restrictions are no longer reasonable.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

especially given that, in this day and age, one can keep the child alive and put him/her up for adoption. If the woman wants the unborn child removed from her womb before childbirth, that's fine; just don't kill it upon removal. I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of social welfare organizations that would care for and raise that child.

Notice that in the Gosnell verdict, he was convicted of three counts of first-degree murder. So at least there is one police officer, one prosecutor, and twelve ordinary citizens who agree that late term abortion is murder.

Recall also that Scott Peterson was convicted of two counts of murder, one for his wife and one for their unborn child.

I thought part of Roe v Wade was to say late-term abortions aren't okay?? or did they merely say that it was okay to ban them??


PS I guess the abortion-specific thread didn't stick, eh? so it goes.

The media swept the Gosnell case under the rug as quickly as possible, as it highlighted just how grisly this stuff is and how hypocritical we as a nation are when at least a lot of people abhor what Gosnell did, but things not that unsimilar take place elsewhere on a regular basis and are ok under current laws. There's something wrong with anyone who doesn't cringe when hearing that a child was born and then Gosnell had their spinal cord snipped to make up for their "mistake" of letting the child be born.

 

[busterman62]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

So you will now decry your side's relentless and ubiquitous use of Insert term de jour as a rhetorical scare tactic and a deliberate attempt to undermine an intelligent discussion of the topic with appeals to emotion by using statistically rare and indeed irrelevant cases.

If this was required around here, there would be several posters we'd never hear from.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Late term abortions wouldn't be discussed if liberals would vote to ban them, as they should.

My understanding (which is, as usual, tenuous at best) is that late term abortions happen when the mother's life is in danger. Banning them would essentially be saying to a woman that her life no longer matters because she's pregnant. I see no "should" there. Instead, conservatives should admit it has absolutely zippo to do with their ostensible target, abortion as birth control, and that they have been using it as a cynical ploy to muddy the waters and replace rational discussion with emotional screeching.

Our platform plank on reproductive rights is going to be... interesting.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

If this was required around here, there would be several posters we'd never hear from.

Ah, but which?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The media swept the Gosnell case under the rug as quickly as possible, as it highlighted just how grisly this stuff is and how hypocritical we as a nation are when at least a lot of people abhor what Gosnell did, but things not that unsimilar take place elsewhere on a regular basis and are ok under current laws. There's something wrong with anyone who doesn't cringe when hearing that a child was born and then Gosnell had their spinal cord snipped to make up for their "mistake" of letting the child be born.

Every single liberal I know is ok with banning late term abortions as long as there is an exception for the health of the mother. Again the right could get many many laws passed but their all or nothing strategy gets them nowhere.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Every single liberal I know is ok with banning late term abortions as long as there is an exception for the health of the mother. Again the right could get many many laws passed but their all or nothing strategy gets them nowhere.

It gets them elected. As long as they keep moving the goalposts, they keep their base infuriated and writing checks, which is the whole point.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

My understanding (which is, as usual, tenuous at best) is that late term abortions happen when the mother's life is in danger. Banning them would essentially be saying to a woman that her life no longer matters because she's pregnant. I see no "should" there. Instead, conservatives should admit it has absolutely zippo to do with their ostensible target, abortion as birth control, and that they have been using it as a cynical ploy to muddy the waters and replace rational discussion with emotional screeching.

Our platform plank on reproductive rights is going to be... interesting.

Late term abortions are medically dangerous for both the mother and (obviously) the child. I've seen stats that say that over half the late term abortions performed have medical complications. And while it's a small percentage of total abortions, the number is still quite sizable, over 15,000 annually.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Late term abortions are medically dangerous for both the mother and (obviously) the child. I've seen stats that say that over half the late term abortions performed have medical complications. And while it's a small percentage of total abortions, the number is still quite sizable, over 15,000 annually.

Sounds like something a doctor and patient should decide on and not a politician.

 

[alfablue]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Same sex marriage
abortion
God / religion in the public square
guns
Conservative speaker at a liberal college
heck - a conservative at a liberal college

Funny how the discussion focused on one thing that was decided by the SCOTUS that there are constitutional measures...

The others-

Same sex Marriage- on that, do we agree that we are all equal or not? Do we all get to have the same official recognition or not? The SCOTUS pretty much sides that we are all equal. I found it really funny when one side decided that same sex marriage should be banned in law- as soon as that happened, I knew that it would end up in the Supreme Court, and their hands are very tied that it's really hard to not have equality. I still predict that all of the anti gay marriage laws will end up being a blanket law allowing it for all states. Exactly what one side did not want to happen will.

God/religion in public square- while the First Amendment does allow for freedom of religion, it also says that the government can not take sides. Therefore, the government is not allowed to chose that there is or is not a God. So that we are all treated equally- no actual publicly owned square should have religious stuff in them.

Guns- for the other side- we have an amendment that says that we are allowed to keep and bear arms. It also says that there is a regulated militia- so where that regulation ends and begins is still being defined.

Speakers- we are allowed to have free speech and freedom of association. But that freedom does allow to NOT have association, too. So it's fair to me that one CAN criticize who is speaking where. Can't stop them from speaking. Can stop them from getting paid. Can be a PITA enough to make people think it's bad idea to have them- which is the point of being allowed to protest in the first place.

While the right likes to rail on the liberals for preventing speakers, they also do a great job of using words like "liberal" and "progressive" as labels which are bad. So lets not pretend that it only goes in one direction.

Anyway, the idea of asking if a bible for a religion is fact or fiction makes one ask if their religious bliefs are worth fighting over. And how far are you willing to take that fight. We see that some groups are willing to take that fight to the death, which kind of sucks.

 

[unofan]

Sounds like something a doctor and patient should decide on and not a politician.

Let's replace late term abortion with other medical procedures and see if it still makes sense:

Chemotherapy has numerous complications and negative side effects, including death. Therefore, we should ban chemotherapy.

Open heart surgery can have numerous risks, including life threatening anti bacterial resistant infections. Therefore, we should ban open heart surgery.

That is Bob's argument when confronted with the fact that the mother's life is already in danger at the time a late term abortion is being considered.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Sounds like something a doctor and patient should decide on and not a politician.

Depends on whether we see a public interest in health. Obvious to some extent we don't.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Depends on whether we see a public interest in health. Obvious to some extent we don't.

You're such a disingenuous piece of ****.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Depends on whether we see a public interest in health. Obvious to some extent we don't.

No, it does show, however, that the right really isn't interested in reducing the number of abortions. Just because something is illegal (drugs) doesn't mean the numbers go down.