The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

[joecct]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

By tbe middle of this century Defender of the Faith may be as obsolete as Emperor of India.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9555222/2067-the-end-of-british-christianity/

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

By tbe middle of this century Defender of the Faith may be as obsolete as Emperor of India.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9555222/2067-the-end-of-british-christianity/

I think I've found one of the problems...

This is a horrifying prospect for the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Revd Justin Welby. As a former treasurer of an oil company

"Who will rid me of that meddlesome banker?!"

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Just like Jesus said.

You and others shouldn't pay attention to this clown and give him attention, which is obviously what he's after. I know it's helpful in pushing your view that Christians are wacko and all, but folks like this guy and Westboro Baptist are not exactly representative of, well, almost all of Christianity. But, hey, push the false agenda if you must.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You and others shouldn't pay attention to this clown and give him attention, which is obviously what he's after. I know it's helpful in pushing your view that Christians are wacko and all, but folks like this guy and Westboro Baptist are not exactly representative of, well, almost all of Christianity. But, hey, push the false agenda if you must.

I go out of my way to distinguish between morons like this thumper and the vast majority of sane people who feel better imagining an invisible friend. The craziness of the thumpers is important to highlight, though, since a segment of the politics that can affect my life and that of my loved ones is in part at the mercy of these Tartuffes and the voters under their spell.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I go out of my way to distinguish between morons like this thumper and the vast majority of sane people who feel better imagining an invisible friend. The craziness of the thumpers is important to highlight, though, since a segment of the politics that can affect my life and that of my loved ones is in part at the mercy of these Tartuffes and the voters under their spell.

Guys like this pastor and Westboro have basically zero to do with who gets elected. Do you really think this pastor has any significant voter following? Oh, wait, go get the windmill!

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Guys like this pastor and Westboro have basically zero to do with who gets elected. Do you really think this pastor has any significant voter following? Oh, wait, go get the windmill!

The windmill doesn't come to you, you have to go to the windmill.

This particular guy and the WBC guy may be on the galactic rim, but they come from the same weird world in which every Republican presidential contender doesn't believe in evolution. These guys may be a little more, er, colorful, but it's all the same disease.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The windmill doesn't come to you, you have to go to the windmill.

This particular guy and the WBC guy may be on the galactic rim, but they come from the same weird world in which every Republican presidential contender doesn't believe in evolution. These guys may be a little more, er, colorful, but it's all the same disease.

That's a horrible connection to make that tries to color a ton of people as something they in no way support or endorse. Shame on you. Many people who don't sign off on evolution abhor people like Westboro. Your correlation is merely your speculation and as someone on that side of things, I can tell you you're badly misgauging things.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

they come from the same weird world in which [people I dislike] doesn't [sic] believe in evolution. ... it's all the same disease.

To which "evolution" do you refer? there are more than one theory of evolution. I know of at least three.

I am sure that many of those people you deride do in fact agree with the majority of the scientific community that Lamarck's theory of evolution through parental acquired characteristics has generally been discredited, although modern DNA technology may very well revive Lamarck's theory after all (genes inserted into the parent may very well be passed down to offspring!).

And even Darwin's theory of evolution through natural selection is not something that people "believe in" as if it were some kind of secular religion. The best we can say is that the preponderance of the evidence we have so far indicates that generally it works as Darwin described.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Regarding whether God "exists" or not, it seems to me that most "conversations" I read and hear are not at all about whether God "exists" but rather are more "I don't like your version of God, I like a different version better." Even many atheists say something like "the world is really so neat and orderly, it's hard to imagine that it came about by random chance; however I reject the notion that God cares about us or pays attention to our daily lives or listens to our prayers."

So rather than banter banalities, I thought I'd ask some professionals at askphilosophers.org for some clarity on this question instead.

Here is the full question and a very thoughtful and useful response: http://www.askphilosophers.org/question/24430

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

That's a horrible connection to make that tries to color a ton of people as something they in no way support or endorse. Shame on you. Many people who don't sign off on evolution abhor people like Westboro. Your correlation is merely your speculation and as someone on that side of things, I can tell you you're badly misgauging things.

No, it all comes back to mistaking the map for the territory, or the rulebook for the game. The WBC guy is on the edge of the spectrum, but the motivating principle -- that one must take every word in the Book of Old Sumerian Myths and Jewish Folktales literally -- is the same. Some might even say the WBC guy is being more honest, since when you read the hardcore stuff them's smiting words.

Once people wrap their minds around the (obvious) proposition that the Bible is mythic and symbolic, most of the hatred and idiocy drain out of them. Seems to me the essence of Christ's teaching is that you can slavishly obey every rule in scripture and still be no closer to salvation, but if you believe in Him, the symbol of love and forgiveness, and apply that in your own life, you have taken the first necessary step to redemption. It's just not that difficult a concept.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

although modern DNA technology may very well revive Lamarck's theory after all (genes inserted into the parent may very well be passed down to offspring!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZeHq7J9aHM

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

No, it all comes back to mistaking the map for the territory, or the rulebook for the game. The WBC guy is on the edge of the spectrum, but the motivating principle -- that one must take every word in the Book of Old Sumerian Myths and Jewish Folktales literally -- is the same. Some might even say the WBC guy is being more honest, since when you read the hardcore stuff them's smiting words.

Once people wrap their minds around the (obvious) proposition that the Bible is mythic and symbolic, most of the hatred and idiocy drain out of them. Seems to me the essence of Christ's teaching is that you can slavishly obey every rule in scripture and still be no closer to salvation, but if you believe in Him, the symbol of love and forgiveness, and apply that in your own life, you have taken the first necessary step to redemption. It's just not that difficult a concept.

Again, no. Even among the Bible literalists, there is a good bit of interpretation/understanding around how things are. You make the whole thing sound ridiculously monolithic as though there's no thought or understanding applied and we're all just robots. I'm about done trying to explain this one, but again, if you think the WBC guy and most Biblical literalists come from remotely the same place, you're very very mistaken. It's about like me saying you come from the same place as Joseph Stalin. I can draw a tenuous line there if I had to, but it's a line that has little value beyond possibly an esoteric theoretical argument someone might want to have.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Again, no. Even among the Bible literalists, there is a good bit of interpretation/understanding around how things are. You make the whole thing sound ridiculously monolithic as though there's no thought or understanding applied and we're all just robots. I'm about done trying to explain this one, but again, if you think the WBC guy and most Biblical literalists come from remotely the same place, you're very very mistaken. It's about like me saying you come from the same place as Joseph Stalin. I can draw a tenuous line there if I had to, but it's a line that has little value beyond possibly an esoteric theoretical argument someone might want to have.

You have lost me with your last line, and I am genuinely curious about what you mean. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate.

Gods work like artistic beauty: the fact that they are inventions of human imagination and, at bottom, "make believe" does not make them any less useful. Mozart matters to me despite the fact that there is no ultimate grounding in the judgement that Mozart is more objectively beautiful than Justin Bieber. God matters to believers in the same way, and as long as they restrict their god to their lives, it's all good. It's when believers begin to impose their version of make-believe on others that there's a problem.

We do not care what you do in your home, but you are not going to tell us what to do in our home. Once you get that, the culture war ends. The temporary problem today is that Christians who are used to their version of make-believe dominating public space are starting (FINALLY!) to get push back from all the rest of us who have a different (no less arbitrary) view of the world. You are losing your expectation that you can roll over us. But we have zero interest in rolling over you -- we could not care less what goes on inside your skull.

All we are saying is: your faith is for you, not for us.

 

[burd]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You have lost me with your last line, and I am genuinely curious about what you mean. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate.

Gods work like artistic beauty: the fact that they are inventions of human imagination and, at bottom, "make believe" does not make them any less useful. Mozart matters to me despite the fact that there is no ultimate grounding in the judgement that Mozart is more objectively beautiful than Justin Bieber. God matters to believers in the same way, and as long as they restrict their god to their lives, it's all good. It's when believers begin to impose their version of make-believe on others that there's a problem.

We do not care what you do in your home, but you are not going to tell us what to do in our home. Once you get that, the culture war ends. The temporary problem today is that Christians who are used to their version of make-believe dominating public space are starting (FINALLY!) to get push back from all the rest of us who have a different (no less arbitrary) view of the world. You are losing your expectation that you can roll over us. But we have zero interest in rolling over you -- we could not care less what goes on inside your skull.

All we are saying is: your faith is for you, not for us.

That speaks well for me, at least. But all too often when a person expresses that sentiment and posits that government policy should not be based upon religious conviction, that person is accused to trying to suppress religious thought.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You have lost me with your last line, and I am genuinely curious about what you mean. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate.

Gods work like artistic beauty: the fact that they are inventions of human imagination and, at bottom, "make believe" does not make them any less useful. Mozart matters to me despite the fact that there is no ultimate grounding in the judgement that Mozart is more objectively beautiful than Justin Bieber. God matters to believers in the same way, and as long as they restrict their god to their lives, it's all good. It's when believers begin to impose their version of make-believe on others that there's a problem.

We do not care what you do in your home, but you are not going to tell us what to do in our home. Once you get that, the culture war ends. The temporary problem today is that Christians who are used to their version of make-believe dominating public space are starting (FINALLY!) to get push back from all the rest of us who have a different (no less arbitrary) view of the world. You are losing your expectation that you can roll over us. But we have zero interest in rolling over you -- we could not care less what goes on inside your skull.

All we are saying is: your faith is for you, not for us.

You really believe that? Egads! We really are from different planets. Maybe you don't have an interest in rolling us, but you're the exception to the rule. We aren't the ones pushing things down anyone's throat, that's you and yours. I've never had an interest in rolling over you and folks I know feel the same and have a reflexive desire to spend time on most anything other than politics and such. Bottom line is there are many issues which seep into the public area to varying extents, so the whole concept of everyone just doing their own things in their own homes is great, but falls far short of reality, as simpler as your concept would be.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Christianity had a good run as the dominant American philosophy of life, and now some of its adherents are upset because growing secular forces are pushing our governments back into balance, which they interpret as persecution. It's the only explanation I have for Bob's line of thinking (other than being raised that way). I get it, even if I don't agree.

Been reading up on the Mormons lately. Interesting fairy tales, if I say so myself. Heck, some of it is downright New Age-y! It's sort of like reading those "If the South had won" alternate histories. I can see where the concept of becoming god-like in the afterlife would be attractive to the poor; in fact, it must be an easy sell in the third world.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Christianity had a good run as the dominant American philosophy of life, and now some of its adherents are upset because growing secular forces are pushing our governments back into balance, which they interpret as persecution. It's the only explanation I have for Bob's line of thinking (other than being raised that way). I get it, even if I don't agree.

Been reading up on the Mormons lately. Interesting fairy tales, if I say so myself. Heck, some of it is downright New Age-y! It's sort of like reading those "If the South had won" alternate histories. I can see where the concept of becoming god-like in the afterlife would be attractive to the poor; in fact, it must be an easy sell in the third world.

All depends on what one considers to be in balance. I respect that others reasonably come to different conclusions on what in balance means. Not everyone seems able to do so.

Funny how Christianity is dominant, yet is almost universally mocked in the media and popular culture. As I've asked before, show me characters on TV in recent years that reflect this supposedly dominant cultural force. The silence has been deafening. At the very least I'd hope such facts would help some people realize that things aren't as simplistic as is often represented. Or maybe people really are that oblivious.

 

[unofan]

All depends on what one considers to be in balance. I respect that others reasonably come to different conclusions on what in balance means. Not everyone seems able to do so.

Funny how Christianity is dominant, yet is almost universally mocked in the media and popular culture. As I've asked before, show me characters on TV in recent years that reflect this supposedly dominant cultural force. The silence has been deafening. At the very least I'd hope such facts would help some people realize that things aren't as simplistic as is often represented. Or maybe people really are that oblivious.

<img src="http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/wikiality/images/e/e1/OppressedChristians.gif/revision/latest?cb=20070508033728">

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

All depends on what one considers to be in balance. I respect that others reasonably come to different conclusions on what in balance means. Not everyone seems able to do so.

Funny how Christianity is dominant, yet is almost universally mocked in the media and popular culture. As I've asked before, show me characters on TV in recent years that reflect this supposedly dominant cultural force. The silence has been deafening. At the very least I'd hope such facts would help some people realize that things aren't as simplistic as is often represented. Or maybe people really are that oblivious.

How many Christmas movies has the popular culture machine in Hollywood produced over the years? There have been so many that I don't have a count. How many Channukah movies? I know of only one - a lousy Adam Sandberg animated movie at that. How many Ramadan movies? Now let's go into the polytheistic religions that were made as articles of faith, not told as ancient myths/fiction...

And then there are the non-holiday movies supporting one religion over another, and still the Christians are going to come out on top.

At the same time, yes, there are factions of our culture taking aim at Christians just as I see Christians taking aim at them. That's the burden of being the top dog in town, you become a target.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

You really believe that? Egads! We really are from different planets. Maybe you don't have an interest in rolling us, but you're the exception to the rule.

I haven't actually met an atheist who wants to roll over Christians. I'm sure some are out there. I assume it has more to do in the definition of what "rolling over" someone is. Us wanting to give a woman the right to have an abortion is not rolling over you; you forcing everyone not to have an abortion is you rolling over us. Us wanting to give gays the right to marry is not rolling over you; you forcing gays not to marry is you rolling over us.

Some rights are social and some are personal. Tie goes to the personal: if I want to do x and that doesn't affect you and you want me to not do x, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate a compelling social interest for imposing on the personal. In the case of abortion there may be such an interest (the interest of the fetus), so it becomes a matter for the Court to define the boundaries of that interest. In the case of gay marriage, I've never heard a remotely plausible state interest. All that's left is "my faith tells me so," which is fine if you're not harming anybody else, but not if you are.

Them's the breaks in public space.