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The Barr Has Been Raised at UMaine
- Thread starter acs64
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I looked up the stats, Maine started one FCS game in 2003, made the playoffs 2 times in ten years playing one.
Started playing 2 in 2013, has made the playoffs twice since then in 8 seasons (excluding the 2020 spring covid deal).
Granted the evolving CAA structure is a variable in there, but percentage wise, the extra game hasnt changed their odds much
Started playing 2 in 2013, has made the playoffs twice since then in 8 seasons (excluding the 2020 spring covid deal).
Granted the evolving CAA structure is a variable in there, but percentage wise, the extra game hasnt changed their odds much
I see both sides of this debate. On the one hand, it's undeniable that football has been probably the best athletic program on campus other than WBB since at least I got to UMaine (2016). They're usually a competitive team in the CAA, haven't had a truly bad season since 1995, and seem to be a rising program that's got something good going on. And, if you take the argument that they'll never win a true national championship in football to its extreme, then the U should cut every sport other than men's hockey, because Maine is never winning a title in football, basketball, baseball, softball, soccer, field hockey, or anything else.
On the other hand, it is true that Maine will always be in the awkward little brother section of D1 football, and they'll never move up to FBS, and if they do, they'll make UConn and UMass look like Alabama and Ohio State. Needing to go and get humilated so they can get cut a check does sit weirdly and leaves a sour taste in your mouth, and needing to do it twice and really hamstring your season is just a huge handicap that leaves very little margin for error. Kind of reminds me of the baseball team playing big programs across the South in early spring every year and starting their season 0-15.
I don't think there's any easy answer.
On the other hand, it is true that Maine will always be in the awkward little brother section of D1 football, and they'll never move up to FBS, and if they do, they'll make UConn and UMass look like Alabama and Ohio State. Needing to go and get humilated so they can get cut a check does sit weirdly and leaves a sour taste in your mouth, and needing to do it twice and really hamstring your season is just a huge handicap that leaves very little margin for error. Kind of reminds me of the baseball team playing big programs across the South in early spring every year and starting their season 0-15.
I don't think there's any easy answer.
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
The guarantees they have gotten are really not that much, although football would be a bigger black hole without them. You can see Maine's financials from 2009-20, but if you don't want to take a look here are football's guarantees for 2009-2019. As can be seen when Maine started playing a second FBS team in 2013 (2014 year end) they doubled their guarantee revenue, but it's still only $300-$350 thousand per game.
[TABLE="width: 128"]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Guarantees[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]480,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2011[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]250,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2012[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]375,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2013[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]300,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2014[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]610,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2015[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]350,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2016[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]725,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]700,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2018[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]600,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2019[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]700,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66, align: right"]2020[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]630,000[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
And Maine's travel expenses to play those two games has to be paid for. Overall Maine football expenses are now over $4 million a season, while hockey is just over $2 million a season. Here are the total expenses and earned P/L for football and hockey:
[TABLE="width: 337"]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Football[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Hockey[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Expenses[/TD]
[TD]P/L[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Expenses[/TD]
[TD]P/L[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]3,593,953[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,619,462[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,683,037[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-399,669[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2011[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]3,507,958[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,707,930[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,838,748[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-368,901[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2012[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]3,897,654[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,729,086[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,972,895[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-551,162[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2013[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]3,789,109[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,965,201[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,966,585[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-692,478[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2014[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,042,263[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,693,433[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,928,856[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-681,433[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2015[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]3,869,339[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,768,262[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,029,764[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-718,756[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2016[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,245,205[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,773,699[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,137,336[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-1,067,521[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,139,692[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,719,716[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,117,117[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-980,208[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2018[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,079,694[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,812,579[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,098,494[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-1,031,033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2019[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,353,148[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-2,841,563[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,230,922[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-1,176,395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"]2020[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]4,523,784[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-3,193,544[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,161,558[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]-1,058,900[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The 2020-21 financial reports will start to be available in a few months.
Sean
Back in hockey news, according to the team's Instagram page, defenseman Samuel Duerr will be joining the team.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/418239/samuel-duerr
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/418239/samuel-duerr
NorthMike
Well-known member
A Shattuck StMarys guy recruited in 2020 by Red and company.
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
Earned profit/loss. It excludes direct and indirect instutional support, student fees and government support. Bottom line, both sports lose money, but football loses 3x as much as hockey.
Sean
According to EliteProspects, he's got 1-2-3 in his last 10 games and is +3 in that time.
Would think the Alaska series is probably off as well. Maine has an off weekend in January so maybe can schedule some other non conference games.
ticapnews
Never graduate.
Back in the Oughts hockey revenue was over $2 million, some years over $3. Maine and UNH were the only public schools east of Ann Arbor to consistently make money playing hockey. My how times have changed.
That’s nice info Sean, well put together, but the idea that 300k is “only” a small amount to Maine is where it goes off the deep end. It adds up to almost $4 million over the 11 seasons. Where the hell else is Maine going to get that kind of scratch? Not from bake sales or golf tournaments or schmoozing alumni that’s for sure
Fishman'81
Black Bear since D-2
Thanks for running the numbers, Sean. I was hoping that you'd do that.
Still, it's probably impossible to gauge what offset of the bottom-line is involved via the money that alumni such as myself contribute to the respective programs. (The IRS never checks on MY contributions.) So, the actual numbers are likely more toward the black in both programs.
As amkirby said below, no Maine sport is making any money. Hockey apparently loses less than football, but we old-codger donors still want Maine to play football, and we send our annual check. If the whole deal is about turning a profit, just forget about fielding any sports in Orono in the first place.
We can't be a one-program D-1 school. That ship sailed many years ago. So perhaps keep supporting the only decent mens' program Maine has, while continuing to rebuild the dumpster fire that is hockey..? I'll keep writing checks for THAT!
Last edited:
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
The financials do report contributions, both to specific sports and overall, which includes non-directed donations. Here are the reported contributions for Maine for 2010-2020:
[TABLE="width: 312"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl66"] [/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]Football[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]Hockey[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]non-directed[/TD]
[TD="class: xl67"]Overall[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2010[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]322,747[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]131,665[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]133,429[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,435,952[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2011[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]375,640[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]193,601[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]514,032[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,446,805[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2012[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]527,321[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]131,592[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]458,552[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,617,010[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2013[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]325,952[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]90,361[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]256,091[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,295,632[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2014[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]508,705[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]97,078[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]455,253[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,530,612[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2015[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]524,497[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]105,001[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]375,067[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,755,282[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2016[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]513,011[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]150,002[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]284,183[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,491,770[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2017[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]522,958[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]234,746[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]392,403[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,665,166[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2018[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]448,571[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]261,746[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]735,821[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]2,095,232[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2019[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]461,442[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]203,194[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]370,529[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,734,635[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl68"]2020[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]465,427[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]240,050[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]174,777[/TD]
[TD="class: xl65, align: right"]1,476,662[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Contributions to football have been generally been at least double contributions to hockey, so it has strong financial support. Furthermore, football donations have ranged between 21% and 34% of total contributions each year, while hockey contributions have been between 6% and 16% of total contributions.
As for making money, that is not supposed to be the purpose of college sports (and indeed, the NCAA likes to report revenue with red/pink highlights and expenses with green highlights). And in fact, of the 30 or so pubic schools with D1 hockey only 6 have reported earned profits between 2010 and 2020:
Michigan (2016-20)
Michigan State (2010, 12-13, 16-19)
Minnesota (2018)
Ohio State (2010-18, 20)
Penn State (2016-20)
Wisconsin (2019)
Every other school for every year that they had DI hockey spent more on athletics than they earned, with UConn and UMass having the largest deficits, although Air Force has joined them.
I also agree that a full DI school should support multiple programs, and ones that are competitive, at least within their league or conference. Unfortunately, many schools have lost sight of the purpose of college athletes. They have become focused on trying to have a top DI basketball or FBS football program and the money and school recognition that such a program reaps.
Sean
AMC
Registered User
That's fine for you. I swore I'd never give another cent until Maine reinstated men's soccer.
Care to explain for a still relatively new Black Bear why they cut men's soccer at all? Doesn't seem like a particularly financially strenuous program to support, and all the schools nearby have one. Was it strictly Title IX related? I would still find that odd, but it's probably the most likely scenario.
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
They tried for years to cut their way to prosperity and it obviously didn’t work. The whole system has struggled with leadership for a long time. It’s an embarrassment to our state we don’t have a better athletic department. I realize there are other things that are underfunded as well.
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