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The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
- Thread starter joecct
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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Still looking for the pony? Keep digging.
Still looking for the pony? Keep digging.
manurespreader
Still upright
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
I seriously doubt the russians would get involved militarily, however, if you are us, what do you bomb and what are the consequences of doing it. From a military perspective, anything that was a decent target is no longer one.
If you bomb the palace and try to bring down the govt, you risk a second chemical weapons attack on civilians and it might not get a regime change anyway.
There is no doubt it happened, and no doubt there has to be a response, the question is what? and can it be effective.
If it can't be effective, then what?
And using aircraft is not in the cards. Forget that.
I seriously doubt the russians would get involved militarily, however, if you are us, what do you bomb and what are the consequences of doing it. From a military perspective, anything that was a decent target is no longer one.
If you bomb the palace and try to bring down the govt, you risk a second chemical weapons attack on civilians and it might not get a regime change anyway.
There is no doubt it happened, and no doubt there has to be a response, the question is what? and can it be effective.
If it can't be effective, then what?
And using aircraft is not in the cards. Forget that.
MountieBoyOz
Eater of Worlds
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Didn't anyone see "The Princess Bride?" Don't they know to "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
Didn't anyone see "The Princess Bride?" Don't they know to "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
They sub-contracted out policy to Congress...I can see where you'd get the two confused though.
When did the White House sub-contract out policy on Syria to the staff writers at The Onion? I missed the announcement....
They sub-contracted out policy to Congress...I can see where you'd get the two confused though.
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Tennis anyone?
Would it be fair to say Congress abdicated responsibility to the Executive Branch?
Tennis anyone?
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
The only thing this Congress has taken any responsibility for is their own reelection.
The only thing this Congress has taken any responsibility for is their own reelection.
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Not sure even Bill has seen her in quite some time.
Not sure even Bill has seen her in quite some time.
Not a big fan of that because Russia will automatically block it. I think the UN has an important role in world diplomacy but when its need for unanimous consent for military action isn't going to allow anything to happen here. All Assad need do is keep using chemical warfare, but then claim its the rebels doing it, and he's home free.
The US needs to bomb the p! ss out of his military, not to invoke regime change because that's the rebels job to do so, much like they did in Libya or Tunisia, but to send the message that using nerve gas on people will provoke a more brutal response than any benefit you're getting from deploying such weapons.
Unfortunately the right answer is in the midde of where the Admin seems to want to be (cruise missle strikes) and where the remaining neo-cons want to be (full scale regime change plus a no fly zone for forever). Not sure if they both get to where they need to be (degrading cruise missle and bomber strikes that cripple the country militarily). As ususal the libertarian lunatics that make up the majority of the GOP are completely out to lunch. I hear they're proposing tax cuts for Assad and a repeal of Obamacare as the solution to the Syrian crisis.
EDIT: Update - Looks like The Boner is on board for attacking Syria.
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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
More signs that this president is very centrist...and not at all a lefty. This follows up on his support on same sex marriage coming very late...which followed many conservatives including Cheney.
Unfortunately the right answer is in the midde of where the Admin seems to want to be (cruise missle strikes) and where the remaining neo-cons want to be (full scale regime change plus a no fly zone for forever). Not sure if they both get to where they need to be (degrading cruise missle and bomber strikes that cripple the country militarily). As ususal the libertarian lunatics that make up the majority of the GOP are completely out to lunch. I hear they're proposing tax cuts for Assad and a repeal of Obamacare as the solution to the Syrian crisis.
More signs that this president is very centrist...and not at all a lefty. This follows up on his support on same sex marriage coming very late...which followed many conservatives including Cheney.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Of course he's centrist. He's to the conservative side of GW on MANY MANY MANY things. In fact he's more conservative than GW ever was.
Good old Bone Man. He can't find a way to side with his coalition on anything except preventing things from coming to the floor which in this case he can't.
Of course he's centrist. He's to the conservative side of GW on MANY MANY MANY things. In fact he's more conservative than GW ever was.
Good old Bone Man. He can't find a way to side with his coalition on anything except preventing things from coming to the floor which in this case he can't.
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
I have to respectfully disagree with the Obama more conservative than GWB stuff. Sticking to just foreign affairs, Bush II would have thought nothing of putting boots on the ground in Syria after a chemical weapons attack. In fact, since troops would have still been in Iraq, they wouldn't have to travel too far to widen the war. As GWB saw the whole region as an area that needed to be converted to democracy at the point of a gun, the crux of neo-conservative thought, and would have figured the Syrians would be greeting US troops as liberators also, the notion that he would have handled this in a less aggressive way than Obama I can't see happening.
Regarding The Boner, lets give credit where credit is due. It would have been easier for him to oppose any action, and leave it to Pelosi + Peter King and co to coble together the 218 votes they needed. That doesn't change the fact that he's the most impotent Speaker of the House in modern times, but he did the right thing as he does once in a great while. What I'm curious about is if the majority of his caucus votes against him. If so, he really needs to retire after this term. If you can't get Republicans to vote for bombing somebody, really - what can you get them to vote for?
I have to respectfully disagree with the Obama more conservative than GWB stuff. Sticking to just foreign affairs, Bush II would have thought nothing of putting boots on the ground in Syria after a chemical weapons attack. In fact, since troops would have still been in Iraq, they wouldn't have to travel too far to widen the war. As GWB saw the whole region as an area that needed to be converted to democracy at the point of a gun, the crux of neo-conservative thought, and would have figured the Syrians would be greeting US troops as liberators also, the notion that he would have handled this in a less aggressive way than Obama I can't see happening.
Regarding The Boner, lets give credit where credit is due. It would have been easier for him to oppose any action, and leave it to Pelosi + Peter King and co to coble together the 218 votes they needed. That doesn't change the fact that he's the most impotent Speaker of the House in modern times, but he did the right thing as he does once in a great while. What I'm curious about is if the majority of his caucus votes against him. If so, he really needs to retire after this term. If you can't get Republicans to vote for bombing somebody, really - what can you get them to vote for?
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
Tax cuts.
If you can't get Republicans to vote for bombing somebody, really - what can you get them to vote for?
Tax cuts.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
This whip count shows those who support bombing have a long way to go
For: 43
Against: 141
Undecided: 249
This whip count shows those who support bombing have a long way to go
For: 43
Against: 141
Undecided: 249
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
I've been surprised by this element... Months of working groups together and the rest with some idea of after action goal is seen as cowboy.
Throwing together a mostly moralistic approach to the idea we may bomb somebody or something knowing that many of the probable scenarios are even worse for Syria and its people just because apparently sarin is more awful thank a truck full of bullets... And full well knowing Bashar the all-powerful-neck may not be as bad in terms of the atrocities than his opposite.
All of this comes from the western "need to do something" crowd without detailing the goal... Weapon elimination? Leadership destruction? Democratization? Pacification? The real goal here is to show our nominal leaders aren't the feckless simps we know they are. Yes, we're doing this because otherwise people will look stupid for holding ideals they can't maintain.
Nothing that is going on their in Syria are right or moral and there is no indication anything we do makes things better. We had much more justification for Iraq no-fly zones where we were trying to prevent geno or ethnocide by a group that was distinctly in control (i.e. Saddam). The others wanting to be left alone.
Here we have an awful multi faction pile up with that for the most part disagree on which of them should rule with an iron fist.
And we are getting involved because we have heads of state who can't allow themselves to admit that some of their ideals aren't going to work.
----
Don't get me wrong, I'm a humanitarian at heart... I want nothing more than others to enjoy peaceful and free societies. I do not see how this accomplishes either one. We are doing this solely because our leaders have been left looking feckless, impotent, and stupid. So in the end it is more about their personal emotions than EITHER national interest OR establishing liberty.
Causus belli is the emotions of the political class. This is not a good place to be working from.
Edit: obviously I left out slaughter/genocide explicitly... Obviously rampant murder for the sake of murder counts because its anti liberty. However we must know that some war will occur because we do not have the means to "enforce" liberty at all times... Sadly reality means cost calculation. I dunno... I just don't see any good here and we seem to compounding worse with worse.
If we drop Bashar then we could very well see lots of intra war as a democrat is unlike to come to the fore... More apt would be at worst Afghanistan and at best Morsi's Egypt. I don't see our resources mattering much in aiding liberty of the people
Edit #2: I'd be more supportive in intervening on Kosovo or the genocidal Yugoslav civil war... For the Rwanda talk the entire west dropped the ball on that one... Presumably afraid of Russian response... Still right in the backyard! That was a genocide and if the jerks didn't try to kill each other over supremacist goals then you would have a general peace. We don't even have those elements here!
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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!
I've heard they won't bomb the chemical warfare depots because it may accidentally unleash the stuff.
Syria has moved the Scuds near or in civilian populations and we won't bomb them because we don't want to kill civilians.
Previously statements by the administration say that Command and Control installations are out as well are government targets.
If I'm the Syrian military, I disperse my forces for the 2 - 3 days while the missiles are incoming. After that is the status quo unchanged?? And what is to prevent Assad from using chemical weapons (if he did in the first place) again?
At least Syria does not allow same sex marriage.
What (where) are the targets and what is the objective?Not a big fan of that because Russia will automatically block it. I think the UN has an important role in world diplomacy but when its need for unanimous consent for military action isn't going to allow anything to happen here. All Assad need do is keep using chemical warfare, but then claim its the rebels doing it, and he's home free.
The US needs to bomb the p! ss out of his military, not to invoke regime change because that's the rebels job to do so, much like they did in Libya or Tunisia, but to send the message that using nerve gas on people will provoke a more brutal response than any benefit you're getting from deploying such weapons.
Unfortunately the right answer is in the midde of where the Admin seems to want to be (cruise missle strikes) and where the remaining neo-cons want to be (full scale regime change plus a no fly zone for forever). Not sure if they both get to where they need to be (degrading cruise missle and bomber strikes that cripple the country militarily). As ususal the libertarian lunatics that make up the majority of the GOP are completely out to lunch. I hear they're proposing tax cuts for Assad and a repeal of Obamacare as the solution to the Syrian crisis.
EDIT: Update - Looks like The Boner is on board for attacking Syria.
I've heard they won't bomb the chemical warfare depots because it may accidentally unleash the stuff.
Syria has moved the Scuds near or in civilian populations and we won't bomb them because we don't want to kill civilians.
Previously statements by the administration say that Command and Control installations are out as well are government targets.
If I'm the Syrian military, I disperse my forces for the 2 - 3 days while the missiles are incoming. After that is the status quo unchanged?? And what is to prevent Assad from using chemical weapons (if he did in the first place) again?
At least Syria does not allow same sex marriage.
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