The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

I believe Michigan is also a donor state. While even my most vociferous righty critics out here will agree that I'm a reasonable man, I'll propose a reasonable solution. Excepting natural disasters like Katrina, how about putting cap on how much the "taker" states can get relative to their contribution? Say 101-102% or something like that. Still a fairer way to do things. I'm a little tired of my tax dollars going to support shiftless and lazy conservatives in states like KY, OK, WY, and SC who insist on electing so called anti-spending pols but are right there with their hand out collecting federal dollars.

Reminds me of the farmer inteviewed before the election saying how the country needed Romney because too many people are living off the govt. When asked if he received farm subsidies from the very same govt he blubbered that he did but he didn't think that should count.

But that shouldn't count

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Otherwise places like michigan and mississippi become our Greece's and Spain's.

If only they were...

 

[walrus]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Anybody experience any long lines at the Airport yet? Looks like DHS inked a 50 million dollar contract for new uniforms right before sequester took place all the while getting ready to furlough employees for the next 6 months. Meanwhile Janet says waits at Airports are up 150 to 200%. What a load of crap

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

That's a horrible idea. Part of the point of federal taxes and spending is to account for the ways in which states' citizens' needs and states' ability to pay to meet them varies.

Yes, Rover seriously makes no sense on this issue. When I live in Texas, I benefit from interstates built in every state, not just the ones in Texas. Missouri benefits hugely from the Army Corps of Engineers projects in Liousiana. We all benefit from the fact that money is only printed in a few large facilities (concentrated in one state or another) rather than having a separate small facility in each state. To the extent that North Dakotans are safer for having thousands of nuclear weapons defending their state, we are ALL safer by the same amount. And on and on.

If you really wanted to do it Rover's way, you should just completely abolish the federal government and make its only role be to enforce a minimum tax rate within each state (states could still choose to go higher, of course). Then, each state is responsible for paying for its own defense, retirement insurance, infrastructure, etc out of its own tax revenue - 50 completely separate little countries.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Anybody experience any long lines at the Airport yet? Looks like DHS inked a 50 million dollar contract for new uniforms right before sequester took place all the while getting ready to furlough employees for the next 6 months. Meanwhile Janet says waits at Airports are up 150 to 200%. What a load of crap

We'll see. Business uses alot of govt services and could well feel the effects.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Yes, Rover seriously makes no sense on this issue. When I live in Texas, I benefit from interstates built in every state, not just the ones in Texas. Missouri benefits hugely from the Army Corps of Engineers projects in Liousiana. We all benefit from the fact that money is only printed in a few large facilities (concentrated in one state or another) rather than having a separate small facility in each state. To the extent that North Dakotans are safer for having thousands of nuclear weapons defending their state, we are ALL safer by the same amount. And on and on.

If you really wanted to do it Rover's way, you should just completely abolish the federal government and make its only role be to enforce a minimum tax rate within each state (states could still choose to go higher, of course). Then, each state is responsible for paying for its own defense, retirement insurance, infrastructure, etc out of its own tax revenue - 50 completely separate little countries.

Some of what you say is true. But 'large govt facitilities' like a single military base make up for a relatively tiny amount of in state federal spending. And much of that evens out to the point where the incremental spending on such facilities is smaller yet. And for other services, we do all benefit to some extent from services in other states. Yet this is also a fraction of the benefit we would receive had the investment been in our local community.

Edit: I always find it odd when I take the typical conservative position, such as states financial independence, in my discussions with those who are more frequently conservative.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

D@mn straight. Two different philosophies. On the one hand in a progressive tax system, you're collecting from people with ability to pay. Only a total idiot would advocate a 25% income tax rate on people making 10K a year for example, which is where most flat tax proposals would need to be. That's the getting the revenue part. Part II is how do you spend said revenues that you've already collected. In fairness you spend on who put the $$$ in. Think of it like a household. Husband and wife may have different incomes, but generally you spend on your household the combination of what both of you make. If the husband decides to take 30% of that budget and spend it on his mistress, there might be an objection raised.

Now before somebody starts whining about old people getting disproprionate payouts via entitlements, I'll remind you that the state with most oldies (Florida) is actually a donor state on the federal level.

Hey Grover, what's your definition of "fair share"?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Yes, Rover seriously makes no sense on this issue. When I live in Texas, I benefit from interstates built in every state, not just the ones in Texas. Missouri benefits hugely from the Army Corps of Engineers projects in Liousiana. We all benefit from the fact that money is only printed in a few large facilities (concentrated in one state or another) rather than having a separate small facility in each state. To the extent that North Dakotans are safer for having thousands of nuclear weapons defending their state, we are ALL safer by the same amount. And on and on.

If you really wanted to do it Rover's way, you should just completely abolish the federal government and make its only role be to enforce a minimum tax rate within each state (states could still choose to go higher, of course). Then, each state is responsible for paying for its own defense, retirement insurance, infrastructure, etc out of its own tax revenue - 50 completely separate little countries.

Didn't they already try that? I believe it was called "The Articles of Confederation". In fact, I believe there's a modern-day example. It's called "The European Union".

 

[Rover]

Some of what you say is true. But 'large govt facitilities' like a single military base make up for a relatively tiny amount of in state federal spending. And much of that evens out to the point where the incremental spending on such facilities is smaller yet. And for other services, we do all benefit to some extent from services in other states. Yet this is also a fraction of the benefit we would receive had the investment been in our local community.

Exactly. Conservatives can't have it both ways. Either you're FOR local governance, self sufficiency, etc or you're not. Under my plan, those paying the higher rates at least get some bang for their buck in the form of tax revenue being spent proportionally to where they live. If a state has a too high concentration of military bases, that state can take a higher portion of base closings next time around as the Pentagon shrinks down.

What conservatives want is a world where they can whine about the gubmint taking away their tax dollars, but keep taking back more money than they're putting in. A little honesty would be nice here. If you're so against federal spending, stop taking the money. How hard a concept is that to understand? Start limiting federal expenditures to states to a fixed % over what they contribute (again I can live with a 101% cap) and watch the budget situation improve. Hell by conservative logic all those people in Kansas or Mississippi will suddenly become productive citizens once they get off the govt teat, right?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Exactly. Conservatives can't have it both ways. Either you're FOR local governance, self sufficiency, etc or you're not. Under my plan, those paying the higher rates at least get some bang for their buck in the form of tax revenue being spent proportionally to where they live. If a state has a too high concentration of military bases, that state can take a higher portion of base closings next time around as the Pentagon shrinks down.

What conservatives want is a world where they can whine about the gubmint taking away their tax dollars, but keep taking back more money than they're putting in. A little honesty would be nice here. If you're so against federal spending, stop taking the money. How hard a concept is that to understand? Start limiting federal expenditures to states to a fixed % over what they contribute (again I can live with a 101% cap) and watch the budget situation improve. Hell by conservative logic all those people in Kansas or Mississippi will suddenly become productive citizens once they get off the govt teat, right?

The point is that taxes should be collected at the lowest level possible. A blanket statement that a state should not receive more than 102% of what the feds collect from them in taxes is silly. Saying that a bunch of things that the feds do should be shifted to the state/county level with the same taxes shifted from federal income tax to state income/sales tax is valid, but to claim its a good idea that the feds continue to collect this money and the require it go back to the states that it came from is silly. Mining taxes get redistributed from the west to the east to pay for problems from old abandoned mines that were left for dead by mining companies that disbanded and reincorporated out west so that money needs to come from somewhere. Should that stop just because Wyoming, Texas, Montana is where the majority of these taxes are collected but the residuals of previous mining is still impacting Ohio and other places? I don't think so.

 

[Rover]

The point is that taxes should be collected at the lowest level possible. A blanket statement that a state should not receive more than 102% of what the feds collect from them in taxes is silly. Saying that a bunch of things that the feds do should be shifted to the state/county level with the same taxes shifted from federal income tax to state income/sales tax is valid, but to claim its a good idea that the feds continue to collect this money and the require it go back to the states that it came from is silly. Mining taxes get redistributed from the west to the east to pay for problems from old abandoned mines that were left for dead by mining companies that disbanded and reincorporated out west so that money needs to come from somewhere. Should that stop just because Wyoming, Texas, Montana is where the majority of these taxes are collected but the residuals of previous mining is still impacting Ohio and other places? I don't think so.

They'd have to cut back elsewhere. What do we always hear from the right? Live within your means like if you're on a household budget. Well, if you have an unexpected expense (say a sinkhole opens up in your backyard that nees repair) you might have to cancel that vacation or weekly trips to the casino. Likewise if you're getting billions of federal largesse for something specific to your state (mine cleanup) maybe you get less transportation dollars in the meantime.

How much money should we keep pouring into Kentucky or Nebraska from the productive states like NY, MA or even TX?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Talk about not having it both ways...

Progressive taxes are good good if we're talking about "the 1%" or "Greedy Corporations" but not if we're talking about red or blue states? Wha...?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

They'd have to cut back elsewhere. What do we always hear from the right? Live within your means like if you're on a household budget. Well, if you have an unexpected expense (say a sinkhole opens up in your backyard that nees repair) you might have to cancel that vacation or weekly trips to the casino. Likewise if you're getting billions of federal largesse for something specific to your state (mine cleanup) maybe you get less transportation dollars in the meantime.

How much money should we keep pouring into Kentucky or Nebraska from the productive states like NY, MA or even TX?

New York? Productive? I needed a good laugh.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Talk about not having it both ways...

Progressive taxes are good good if we're talking about "the 1%" or "Greedy Corporations" but not if we're talking about red or blue states? Wha...?

Kid in the candy aisle.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

They'd have to cut back elsewhere. What do we always hear from the right? Live within your means like if you're on a household budget. Well, if you have an unexpected expense (say a sinkhole opens up in your backyard that nees repair) you might have to cancel that vacation or weekly trips to the casino. Likewise if you're getting billions of federal largesse for something specific to your state (mine cleanup) maybe you get less transportation dollars in the meantime.

How much money should we keep pouring into Kentucky or Nebraska from the productive states like NY, MA or even TX?

One of the ways we deal with these things is by taxing those that are currently mining for mistakes of the past whether its walking away from a site early and realizing that the bond wasn't big enough to clean up the site or companies claiming bankruptcy and reincorporating in another state to avoid cleanup. This part of the reason Minnesota and Wisconsin are struggling with regulations for new mining activities to make sure that if someone starts a project, bonding is for the appropriate amount and government finds a way to hold companies responsible when things don't go according to "plan." This is just one example where redistribution makes sense. Also of note, states like Wyoming and the like do still get to keep a large portion of their mining taxes but instead of using it to clean up sites, they are able to use it for infrastructure or hospitals as long as the state is declared "clean."

 

[Rover]

Talk about not having it both ways...

Progressive taxes are good good if we're talking about "the 1%" or "Greedy Corporations" but not if we're talking about red or blue states? Wha...?

Under my plan, the people paying the taxes are getting that money back. Under the current plan, the people paying the taxes are having it sent to lazy conservatives in red states. Which one is fairer?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Under my plan, the people paying the taxes are getting that money back. Under the current plan, the people paying the taxes are having it sent to lazy conservatives in red states. Which one is fairer?

yup, the only lazy people in this country are conservatives, got it. you just keep making it so much easier to take you seriously each day...

 

[walrus]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Chavez won't be coming down for Dinner

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 2nd Term - Round 2 - Amensty for Some, Miniature AR-15s for Others...

Even the UN gets stuff Obama doesn't get as the UN and 8 former drug chiefs go after Obama for bailing on enforcing federal drug law:
http://news.yahoo.com/ex-dea-heads-un-panel-urge-us-nullify-202101644.html
Yet another embarrasment from this administration. How low will we be dragged in the next four years.

 

[Rover]

yup, the only lazy people in this country are conservatives, got it. you just keep making it so much easier to take you seriously each day...

I realize facts have a liberal bias, but check out the donor states vs the taker states and get back to me (I don't expect you to, but its worth making the request). On the Presidential level, which of course is the easiest to assess, the only "red" state paying more than they get is Texas. That's one hell of a coincidence don't you think?