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The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

That's the outsiders' viewpoint, granted.

However, having worked in several industries that have regular, periodic insider gatherings, the political conventions don't look all that different to me than any other professional gathering. People get together from around the country for a big party and call it "work."

You stay in a hotel or convention center for a few days, attend a few speeches and presentations, have drinks and dinner with folks from around the country who do the same thing you do, build connections and relationships that often prove very fruitful going forward. I've met people at gatherings whom otherwise I'd only have known from a few e-mails and phone calls; which allows me (and them) to explore mutually-beneficial networking opportunities.
I'd never be interested in watching yours' or others' professional gatherings though. :) I have no problem if the political parties want to get together and do networking and all. But, for the most part, it's really not something I see value in viewing. Not that there's much else worth watching on TV, so compared to what else there is to view, I guess a political convention isn't so bad.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

I'd never be interested in watching yours' or others' professional gatherings though. :) I have no problem if the political parties want to get together and do networking and all. But, for the most part, it's really not something I see value in viewing. Not that there's much else worth watching on TV, so compared to what else there is to view, I guess a political convention isn't so bad.
I doubt anybody watches anything but the nominee acceptance speech anymore. Conventions are completely sanitized. Even the "ad libs" are rehearsed.

Sadly, the debates have gone that way too.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

You have that at least half backwards. Christie is full of **** like no other politician I know.

Scott Walker sure as hell is a leader. Or do you not consider him one because you don't agree with his policies?
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

It very well could be the rise of a new movement, especially if many motivated, fiscally conservative Gen-Y people out there are able to gain some momentum. Granted there's a large hurdle in the highly gullible yet concentrated baby boomers who will only trust the big three for media.
If the Tea Party movement had cared enough to stay true to its founding principles rather than organically drifting into the extreme Right Wing social politics that most of its members happened to share, then its natural home (out of the traditional parties) would be among the Libertarians. The only way to cut taxes AND balance the budget would be to drastically reduce the size and scope of the powers held by the federal government.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

If the Tea Party movement had cared enough to stay true to its founding principles rather than organically drifting into the extreme Right Wing social politics that most of its members happened to share, then its natural home (out of the traditional parties) would be among the Libertarians. The only way to cut taxes AND balance the budget would be to drastically reduce the size and scope of the powers held by the federal government.
The TP may have started as a fiscal conservative movement, but it pretty quickly degenerated into the Christian Taliban. That was inevitable the moment the RNC realized they could exploit it.

It is a profoundly sad irony that after forty years in the wilderness crying extravagantly about the dangers of totalitarianism, when the Libertarians' moment came they were hijacked by the closest thing this country has ever had to a totalitarian movement.
 
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Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

My political opponents are the Christian Taliban.

This whole line of argument (which has been getting ginned up again in the last few days, I suppose because there's a convention going on) isn't even shocking or clever any more. It just sounds stupid and boring and bigoted.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

This whole line of argument (which has been getting ginned up again in the last few days, I suppose because there's a convention going on) isn't even shocking or clever any more. It just sounds stupid and boring and bigoted.
Agreed. Calling folks Christian Taliban is so yesterday. They can at least find something interesting to call us when they badmouth and smear us.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

The TP may have started as a fiscal conservative movement, but it pretty quickly degenerated into the Christian Taliban. That was inevitable the moment the RNC realized they could exploit it.
As a counterpoint, would you call many of the Dem supporters a secular Taliban?

Edit: Should I start a new thread on September 1? I was thinking of an one thread per month.
Tentative titles:
Try to remember, that time in September
The October Surprise
(Nov is still on the drawing board)
 
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Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Though you already have the "remember" idea for Sept, I'd go with, "Remember, Remember the 6th of November..."
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

The TP may have started as a fiscal conservative movement, but it pretty quickly degenerated into the Christian Taliban. That was inevitable the moment the RNC realized they could exploit it.

It is a profoundly sad irony that after forty years in the wilderness crying extravagantly about the dangers of totalitarianism, when the Libertarians' moment came they were hijacked by the closest thing this country has ever had to a totalitarian movement.

Nuance? Toleration? All absent from your posts. Always. Fortunately most of us understand what a lefty blowhard you are. "Profoundly sad irony?" To say that you are full of yourself is to understate the situation rather dramatically.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

As a counterpoint, would you call many of the Dem supporters a secular Taliban?
The current far right scores at least an 11 out of 14 on the index of the defining features of fascism. (#13 I think is probably endemic to all government, and #6 and #14 are in the eye of the beholder.) Most of these features have a very distinct militarist-religious tincture.

There is certainly such a thing as liberal fundamentalism, but it expresses itself in a different sort of Messianic complex than the one we see spewing from the right.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

As a counterpoint, would you call many of the Dem supporters a secular Taliban?

Edit: Should I start a new thread on September 1? I was thinking of an one thread per month.
Tentative titles:
Try to remember, that time in September
The October Surprise
(Nov is still on the drawing board)

Since the Obama convention starts off September, I think this one is pretty obvious.
 
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Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

The current far right scores at least an 11 out of 14 on the index of the defining features of fascism.

I suppose that's right. I was at first offended because I saw your post as an attack on Christianity itself (a al Foxton) rather than the Fascism which might use it rhetorically (a la the "far right")
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Nuance? Toleration? All absent from your posts. Always. Fortunately most of us understand what a lefty blowhard you are. "Profoundly sad irony?" To say that you are full of yourself is to understate the situation rather dramatically.

Says the pot...

You're the best! :)
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Since the Obama convention starts off September, I think this one is pretty obvious.
No.

Could paraphrase a Neil Diamond song "September Mourn"

you forgot "Workers of the World Unite!!" in the previous post? :D
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

The current far right scores at least an 11 out of 14 on the index of the defining features of fascism. (#13 I think is probably endemic to all government, and #6 and #14 are in the eye of the beholder.) Most of these features have a very distinct militarist-religious tincture.

There is certainly such a thing as liberal fundamentalism, but it expresses itself in a different sort of Messianic complex than the one we see spewing from the right.

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Uh, you really believe this?:eek:
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

I suppose that's right. I was at first offended because I saw your post as an attack on Christianity itself (a al Foxton) rather than the Fascism which might use it rhetorically (a la the "far right")
But you need to realize that anyone supporting conservative causes is typically labeled far right around here. Frankly, to most liberals I don't think they really believe there is a non-far right. You don't agree with them and you're automatically radical by definition.
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

Uh, you really believe this?:eek:

One of his typical logical fallacies. We could use him for a textbook.

Nationalism is a feature of fascist regimes; however not all nationalism is fascism. (think of Venn diagrams, a small circle inside a big circle; he wants you to think both circles are the same when one is a smaller subset of the other).

and the idea that the "right" has a "disdain for human rights" or is "sexist" is him reading his own prejudices onto others whether they really exist there or not.

Why do you think he's so sanctimonious?

"people are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most sensitive in themselves."

Or to put it another way, "why are you so critical about the splinter in your neighbor's eye while you ignore the plank in your own?"
 
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Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

One step closer to Godwin, though. With 250+ posts available yet in this thread we might get there. :p
 
Re: The 2012 Presidential Election Part I - The guns of August

But you need to realize that anyone supporting conservative causes is typically labeled far right around here. Frankly, to most liberals I don't think they really believe there is a non-far right. You don't agree with them and you're automatically radical by definition.

I do realize that. I've been shot at by both sides in the label wars.
I also think that the GOP is damaging itself by its inflexibility on immigration, military spending, and other things that push it further toward extremism than toward the center. Especially in the house. I'd seriously vote for Jeb Bush for prez who is saying a lot I agree with on moderating these issues.
William Saletan, undeniably a liberal, says a lot I agree with on the current debate.
 
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