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The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

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Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

Kepler said:
This is excellent, thank you.

How does the debt ceiling factor into the above discussion? When the government is running up debt it means its total obligations are more than the amount of cash it has on hand, right? The debt ceiling seems to be an unnecessary and fictitious limit to this number. The limiting should take place much earlier. The government estimates its revenue and then approves a budget -- if that budget is in deficit then that is the point where the government is in fact defining the amount of debt it is willing to accrue.

You get to choose not to spend the money when you're out shopping, not when the bill comes. It you fail to honor the bill you're not living within your means, you're just a bad credit risk.
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You speak as though federal budgeting is a rational process. :eek:
 
Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

Kepler said:
No, NO, NO!!!

This is money already obligated! Raising the debt ceiling is not spending. God, this needs to be engraved on every conservative's gun so he can see it when he's fondling it.

Limiting your spending is fiscally responsible. Not paying your godd-mned credit card is just being a deadbeat!
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Then why, about five minutes after each time the debt limit is raised, new spending happens? It's basically having a credit card, maxing it out, and then calling the credit card company asking for the credit limit to be raised because you maxed out the card, all while you've been making minimum payments. Why else is one going to think you want a higher limit? So you can spend more! I know they don't teach logic at ivy league universities, but you cannot POSSIBLY be that out of mind.
 
Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

FlagDUDE08 said:
Then why, about five minutes after each time the debt limit is raised, new spending happens? It's basically having a credit card, maxing it out, and then calling the credit card company asking for the credit limit to be raised because you maxed out the card, all while you've been making minimum payments. Why else is one going to think you want a higher limit? So you can spend more! I know they don't teach logic at ivy league universities, but you cannot POSSIBLY be that out of mind.
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It's beyond that. It's somehow managing to commit to spending more money via your credit card than your max limit, than hoping that your max limit always gets increased to match the next increment of spending that you don't have to spend to begin with. If the federal government had a responsible bone in its body we wouldn't be talking about raising the debt limit seemingly almost all the time to begin with. It's kinda like driving recklessly without your seat belt on and getting mad at the seat belt indicator for beeping at you to put on your seat belt. Only in the beltway can stuff like this get so twisted around. Just like how the feds talk about not getting as big of an increase in a given piece of the budget as they had asked for as having their funding cut. First time I heard that one I really had a hard time believing people were so disingenuous and other people would buy it. It's much easier to believe now.
 
Bob Gray said:
It's beyond that. It's somehow managing to commit to spending more money via your credit card than your max limit, than hoping that your max limit always gets increased to match the next increment of spending that you don't have to spend to begin with. If the federal government had a responsible bone in its body we wouldn't be talking about raising the debt limit seemingly almost all the time to begin with. It's kinda like driving recklessly without your seat belt on and getting mad at the seat belt indicator for beeping at you to put on your seat belt. Only in the beltway can stuff like this get so twisted around. Just like how the feds talk about not getting as big of an increase in a given piece of the budget as they had asked for as having their funding cut. First time I heard that one I really had a hard time believing people were so disingenuous and other people would buy it. It's much easier to believe now.
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I hate household analogies because the federal government is not a household and should not be treated as though it were one, but I'll stick with it for ease of conversation.

The debt ceiling is not a product of the credit card company in this situation, it's the holder of the card himself. This is Joe Blow saying "Even though I racked up $X in bills, I personally pledged to myself I'd only pay off $Y. Should I change Y to be greater than X or go into default and really screw myself over?"

The debt ceiling is the U.S. government saying we've spent X, but we're only allowing ourselves to pay back Y amount.

The credit card company in this analogy are the bond markets. If we were actually near our credit limit, the interest rates on our t-bills and bonds wouldbe skyrocketing. That hasn't happened, which means we're not actually anywhere near our credit limit.
 
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Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

The debt ceiling itself should be abolished, BTW. There's a reason no other country has one, because it's duplicative of the budgeting process. It's historically been a tool for the minority party to get some cheap talking points (see any debt ceiling debate pre 2009). Now it's a way for a minority part of one party to hold the entire country hostage because they're farking power hungry douchbags who don't believe in responsible governance.
 
Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

unofan said:
The credit card company in this analogy are the bond markets. If we were actually near our credit limit, the interest rates on our t-bills and bonds wouldbe skyrocketing. That hasn't happened, which means we're not actually anywhere near our credit limit.
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We had also actually also managed to haul spending in before the Dubya Depression. This despite the fact that our legacy obligations were growing all the while with the aging of the Boomers.

We can actually recover fairly quickly if we recapture the revenue we've been bleeding away to the rich ever since 1980, means-test future entitlements to turn them back into insurance programs, and dismantle the empire and its trillion or so dollars per year of corporate welfare. Once we start running surpluses we can pay down the debt and be back to a historically normal debt percentage of GNP within a few decades.

Or we can keep trying to put the laws of economics up for a vote.
 
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Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

The debt limit is only an issue to the extent our federal government can't keep itself from spending money we don't have to spend. If they spent within this nation's means, the debt limit would never be an issue (and could arguably not be needed). Another analogy could be putting on of the breathalyzer things on your car's admission after you've been repeatedly caught driving drunk and you get mad at the breathalyzer not letting your start your car instead of not engaging in the irresponsible behavior that required the breathalyzer by installed and that it kicks in when you again don't act responsibly. When people complain about having a debt limit, it just tells me they have little interest in having a fiscally responsible and long term financially viable nation.
 
Bob Gray said:
The debt limit is only an issue to the extent our federal government can't keep itself from spending money we don't have to spend. If they spent within this nation's means, the debt limit would never be an issue (and could arguably not be needed). Another analogy could be putting on of the breathalyzer things on your car's admission after you've been repeatedly caught driving drunk and you get mad at the breathalyzer not letting your start your car instead of not engaging in the irresponsible behavior that required the breathalyzer by installed and that it kicks in when you again don't act responsibly. When people complain about having a debt limit, it just tells me they have little interest in having a fiscally responsible and long term financially viable nation.
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You can repeat this analogy as much as you want, Bob. You're still wrong and show a lack of understanding of what the debt ceiling actually is.
 
Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

Bob Gray said:
The debt limit is only an issue to the extent our federal government can't keep itself from spending money we don't have to spend. If they spent within this nation's means, the debt limit would never be an issue (and could arguably not be needed). Another analogy could be putting on of the breathalyzer things on your car's admission after you've been repeatedly caught driving drunk and you get mad at the breathalyzer not letting your start your car instead of not engaging in the irresponsible behavior that required the breathalyzer by installed and that it kicks in when you again don't act responsibly. When people complain about having a debt limit, it just tells me they have little interest in having a fiscally responsible and long term financially viable nation.
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And to address the one comment someone had about the bond rates: Said rates have been kept artificially low for quite a long time. Why? Same reason the Federal Reserve intentionally creates inflation: Money movement. They don't want to reward people who have capital. It's been happening for a long time. Yes, I understand that every transaction must have a buyer and a seller. Take a look at what the seller wants, though, and manipulates 401(k)s to force them into treasuries (happened to some SSA workers a while back, if you recall). If the market truly had a 100% say, bond rates would be double digits and we would see stagflation.
 
Re: The 114th Congress: How Low Can They Go?

It does not surprise me that a party run by elite businessmen failed to follow rule #1 for the maintenance of your health and safety: Recognize who the stupid people are and put as much distance as possible between them and you.
 
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