The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

All I said was that stats show that fewer women have abortions after having seen an ultrasound of their baby. I really don't see how you could read that as saying people should be forced to.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

And in other news, the latest report shows Medicare and Social Security falling apart even earlier than previously projected.

http://http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/13/politics/main20062642.shtml

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

All I said was that stats show that fewer women have abortions after having seen an ultrasound of their baby. I really don't see how you could read that as saying people should be forced to.

Two reasons: (1) One of the latest GOP campaigns regarding this wedge issue is requiring women to view ultrasounds before they can get an abortion (not that most doctors wouldn't do this anyway, but that still doesn't mean the politicians should mandate it as a requirement), and (2) Because your post was made in response to, and quoted, this post:

My favorites are the bills requiring women to view abortion procedures.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but it doesn't exactly take a stretch of the imagination to read your post as a...re-phrasing...of the requirement part rather than a disagreement of such.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

you personally may not want to force women to view anything, but there the texas legislature sure does.

ftfy.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Two reasons: (1) One of the latest GOP campaigns regarding this wedge issue is requiring women to view ultrasounds before they can get an abortion (not that most doctors wouldn't do this anyway, but that still doesn't mean the politicians should mandate it as a requirement), and (2) Because your post was made in response to, and quoted, this post:


Maybe I'm too cynical, but it doesn't exactly take a stretch of the imagination to read your post as a...re-phrasing...of the requirement part rather than a disagreement of such.

I've found that at times you have just such an imagination!

As I said before, I personally don't think anyone should be forced to do anything, even if I think it's a good thing if they do and its important information for them to have. But in fairness, folks like the Texas Legislature are pushing back against people like Planned Parenthood, who typically don't show ultrasounds, present adoption as a viable option, etc. There's a reason that Planned Parenthood has like 400 abortions for every adoption referral. I think there's some reasonable middle ground that would serve pregnant women and society in general well.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

There's a reason that Planned Parenthood has like 400 abortions for every adoption referral.

No idea if your numbers are right, but women go to PP for abortions, evil PP doctors don't brainwash them or something.

99% of people who go to tattoo parlors get tattoos. Clearly, the artists are putting the strong arm on them.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No idea if your numbers are right, but women go to PP for abortions, evil PP doctors don't brainwash them or something.

99% of people who go to tattoo parlors get tattoos. Clearly, the artists are putting the strong arm on them.

But they always claim that PP's main purpose is prenatal health and all, not abortions. They can't have it both ways.

On the numbers, here's from the PP wiki, which references PP's 2008-2009 annual report:
"Those percentages include prenatal services to 7,021 clients and 977 adoption referrals to other agencies as well as 332,278 abortions." I guess that wouldn't be quite a 400 to 1 ratio, but not far from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_parenthood#Services_and_facilities

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But they always claim that PP's main purpose is prenatal health and all, not abortions. They can't have it both ways.

On the numbers, here's from the PP wiki, which references PP's 2008-2009 annual report:
"Those percentages include prenatal services to 7,021 clients and 977 adoption referrals to other agencies as well as 332,278 abortions." I guess that wouldn't be quite a 400 to 1 ratio, but not far from it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_parenthood#Services_and_facilities

They do other things as well. Only 3% of what they do is abortions. That came out during the John Kyl #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement debacle.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But they always claim that PP's main purpose is prenatal health and all, not abortions. They can't have it both ways.

No way Jose, you pivoted in the middle, going from "abortion vs adoption" to "abortion vs pre-natal care." Two very, very different comparisons. To say that PP's lack of adoption referrals in some way impacts their record of pre-natal care is like saying an ear, nose and throat doctor doesn't actually treat tonsils because he rarely makes a referral to a foot doctor.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

They do other things as well. Only 3% of what they do is abortions. That came out during the John Kyl #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement debacle.

But what's her face started PP and she was A, B, and C and why the **** are you discussing this with Bob again?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But what's her face started PP and she was A, B, and C and why the **** are you discussing this with Bob again?

Everything old is new again.

And the name of the person you are thinking of is Mrs. Adolf Hitler, duh.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But they always claim that PP's main purpose is prenatal health and all, not abortions. They can't have it both ways.
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No, the claim is that 97% of what planned parenthood does is not abortions. Which is true, because planned parenthood wants you in there before you ever get pregnant.

If you're already pregnant, then your numbers are probably right. Because you don't need to go to PP in most states for pre-natal care (Iowa's Hawkeye program provides extremely good prenatal care for low-income mothers-to-be, for instance), and there are far better places to go than PP for adoption services.

But that ignores the fact that most people goto PP before they ever get pregnant (hence that whole planning for parenthood thing in the name).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No way Jose, you pivoted in the middle, going from "abortion vs adoption" to "abortion vs pre-natal care." Two very, very different comparisons. To say that PP's lack of adoption referrals in some way impacts their record of pre-natal care is like saying an ear, nose and throat doctor doesn't actually treat tonsils because he rarely makes a referral to a foot doctor.

No pivot, you just missed where my comments went. I wasn't inferring that their lack of adoptions means they don't do other prenatal stuff or anything like that. But, I was just responding to your comment that people go to PP for abortions, indicating that's one of their main purposes or that's what people think of to to there for, as compared to almost nil activity at PP regarding adoption. Either one of their main functions is providing abortions or it isn't. And the numbers clearly show that they don't promote adoption as an alternative, or at least do so grossly ineffectively.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

And the numbers clearly show that they don't promote adoption as an alternative, or at least do so grossly ineffectively.

No, the numbers show that people who are already pregnant don't go to PP for adoption services. Which, consdiering how few places provide such services, is not surprising in the least.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No, the numbers show that people who are already pregnant don't go to PP for adoption services. Which, consdiering how few places provide such services, is not surprising in the least.

You really think that if they presented adoption as a good, viable option to all the women coming in the door, even those who lean toward abortion, that only one in 400 would go toward adoption? Yes, as noted previously, you have a very active imagination, or else are simply avoiding inconvenient truths.

But this is coming from a guy who is advocating forcing people to be told things in church as somehow being equivalent to people freely accepting the offer of an ultrasound.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No, the numbers show that people who are already pregnant don't go to PP for adoption services.

There are so few people who go to the supermarket to buy shoes.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But this is coming from a guy who is advocating forcing people to be told things in church as somehow being equivalent to people freely accepting the offer of an ultrasound.

Right, because there's no reason for anyone to miscontrue your initial post as obfuscating the current GOP policy position that such ultrasounds be mandatory, not voluntary...oh wait, at least 3 people in this thread did exactly that.

Comeon, who's being obtuse now?

Edit: Also, i was being intentionally over the top in my scenario, to prove the absurdity of the GOP's position. It's called an analogy, Bob. Doesn't mean I actually was advocating for it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Right, because there's no reason for anyone to miscontrue your initial post as obfuscating the current GOP policy position that such ultrasounds be mandatory, not voluntary...oh wait, at least 3 people in this thread did exactly that.

Comeon, who's being obtuse now?

Edit: Also, i was being intentionally over the top in my scenario, to prove the absurdity of the GOP's position. It's called an analogy, Bob. Doesn't mean I actually was advocating for it.

I can't help it that sometimes people read something into a post that's not there. I struggle with that problem regularly with you.

In case you haven't noticed, you're arguing against a position I haven't taken and have explained so several times. But, keep right at it if that's what you enjoy.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

You really think that if they presented adoption as a good, viable option to all the women coming in the door, even those who lean toward abortion, that only one in 400 would go toward adoption? Yes, as noted previously, you have a very active imagination, or else are simply avoiding inconvenient truths.

But this is coming from a guy who is advocating forcing people to be told things in church as somehow being equivalent to people freely accepting the offer of an ultrasound.

Do you think the person walking in the door hasn't considered an adoption? Do you think they also considered that it would be a pretty harsh burden to carry the fetus to term, not to mention potential health risks and expenses incurred, all so that when the baby is finally delivered she can go through the emotional trauma of having it taken away from her? And again, 1 in 400 is your number. Based on the wikipedia article, it's 1 in 340 and again, that doesn't count the numerous people who go to Planned Parenthood so that they don't get pregnant in the first place.

No one is pro-abortion. There aren't protesters hanging around outside maternity wards screaming at the women that go inside and no one is blowing up fertility clinics or shooting fertility doctors in the head. The philosophy was best espoused a few years ago: the practice should be safe, legal and rare. It's endlessly amusing to me that by and large, the people most vocal about abortion are also the same people who are for abstinence only, against birth control but think programs like WIC should be cut so we can build more tanks and planes.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

There are so few people who go to the supermarket to buy shoes.

The bastages.