The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Firstly, that's obviously not what that chart says (even though the article tries to slip it in). It takes a set of large contributers (probably carefully selected -- note the laughable bias and silly language of the article, "leftist," blah blah blah, Jesus, who talks that way outside the Echo Chamber? -- and notes Dems get more from those sources. Notice they are unions and such. Let's make a list of the top financial firms, the top energy companies, the top aerospace companies, the top pharm companies (actually, that one's probably about equally corrupt) and see where that money goes. The "leftist" narrative is, after all, that the GOP is bought and paid for by the top 1%. I'd say that's unarguably true. The only real question is whether the Dems are also bought and paid for by the top 1%.

I was trying more to point out that both sides get plenty of corporate money.

Secondly, I don't understand why corporations pay taxes at all. I would zero out all corporate tax rates and then tax the ef out of high income earners. Let capital flow and create jobs. Collect the money from the people who have it.

I'd do the same thing, but I'd tax the resources that are taken out of the economy (sales) instead of the work that is put into it (income).

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

The only real question is whether the Dems are also bought and paid for by the top 1%.

The billionaires on the Forbes 400 list have given more than $30 million to politicians and political action committees since 2006, along with millions more in soft money to politically active groups. Although Forbes 400 members give about 15% more money to Republicans than Democrats, they fund groups across the political spectrum.

Link

My favorite is Bill Gates. He's given money to just about everyone.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'm wondering if it's possible to come up with a revenue neutral way to tax behaviors that aren't productive and eliminate the income tax altogether (since working is clearly a productive behavior).

What are the worst behaviors we as a society are guilty of?

Here's a few off the top of my head:
- consuming too much energy (solution: tax energy consumption at a higher rate)
- overeating / consuming unhealthy foods in excess (solution: tax all junk food/soft drinks)
- polluting / contributing to global climate change (solution: tax on emissions including CO2)
- buying a lot of crap we don't actually need (solution: national sales tax)

I could've cited alcohol and tobacco use, but both are already taxed heavily.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'm wondering if it's possible to come up with a revenue neutral way to tax behaviors that aren't productive and eliminate the income tax altogether (since working is clearly a productive behavior).

What are the worst behaviors we as a society are guilty of?

Here's a few off the top of my head:
- consuming too much energy (solution: tax energy consumption at a higher rate)
- overeating / consuming unhealthy foods in excess (solution: tax all junk food/soft drinks)
- polluting / contributing to global climate change (solution: tax on emissions including CO2)
- buying a lot of crap we don't actually need (solution: national sales tax)

I could've cited alcohol and tobacco use, but both are already taxed heavily.

They problem you have is who defines what isn't productive. For example, its takes a lot of energy to make steel. Is that now not productive?

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I was trying more to point out that both sides get plenty of corporate money.

I'd do the same thing, but I'd tax the resources that are taken out of the economy (sales) instead of the work that is put into it (income).

Because that isn't regressive at all, when rich people can simply not spend money while poor people have to spend everything just to live.

The luxury tax no longer exists because it didn't hurt rich people, it hurt the people who made the luxury goods as their sales dried up.

Nice solution there, really. And don't use this as another opportunity to bring up a link to the Fair Tax for the upteenth dozen time. That's the biggest crock of **** ever.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Because that isn't regressive at all, when rich people can simply not spend money while poor people have to spend everything just to live.

Just because there's a sales tax doesn't mean the rich will stop spending their money (unless they have reason to believe they can get rid of the tax in a fairly short amount of time, in which case they would certainly delay at least some of their purchases).
Fairly old but humorous article: What the ultra-rich spend their money on

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I know we've had this discussion before, but that money goes to specific programs and has nothing to do with running the gov't. In fact, the income tax revenue is now paying for those programs. So I ask again, what percentage of the population should pay for the running of the federal gov't?

That's a lie. It doesn't go to specific programs. It goes in the general fund. They DO NOT budget them separately. If they did then the government wouldn't owe it self money for stealing that money and we wouldn't have as much debt.

They take money from SS all the time to run the government. Ryan is balancing the budget by eliminating Medicare, do you think he's giving us back that 3%. NO. Try again.

EVERYONE PAYS TAXES.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

That's a lie. It doesn't go to specific programs. It goes in the general fund. They DO NOT budget them separately. If they did then the government wouldn't owe it self money for stealing that money and we wouldn't have as much debt.

They take money from SS all the time to run the government. Ryan is balancing the budget by eliminating Medicare, do you think he's giving us back that 3%. NO. Try again.

EVERYONE PAYS TAXES.

yes, everyone who works pay taxes (except those that the "making work pay" credit covers their FICA), but not eveyone pays income taxes.

And they are held seperately
FICA Tax

FICA is a tax that is collected by a federal tax department; this levying process is held separately from more common taxation because other funding is typically obtained through the Internal Revenue Service.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Secondly, I don't understand why corporations pay taxes at all. I would zero out all corporate tax rates and then tax the ef out of high income earners. Let capital flow and create jobs. Collect the money from the people who have it.

I'd make one exception: to the extent that it's possible to do so, I'd tax corporate money leaving the country heavily. I don't know if it's feasible, but it would support the mission of pushing companies to reinvest in the U.S.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'd make one exception: to the extent that it's possible to do so, I'd tax corporate money leaving the country heavily. I don't know if it's feasible, but it would support the mission of pushing companies to reinvest in the U.S.

If there was no corporate tax here you wouldn't have to worry about that money leaving the country. We'd be the biggest tax haven in the business world.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Just because there's a sales tax doesn't mean the rich will stop spending their money (unless they have reason to believe they can get rid of the tax in a fairly short amount of time, in which case they would certainly delay at least some of their purchases).
Fairly old but humorous article: What the ultra-rich spend their money on

Yeah, but a family earning 30,000/year probably spends 95% of that, and saves 5% if they're lucky. So any sales tax affects 95% of their income, or 28,500. For ease of numbers, assume a 20% sales tax. They're paying 5700 in sales taxes, or an effective rate of 19%.

A family with 75,000/year probably spends what, 80-90% of that? Say they spend 85% and save 15%. So they're being taxed on 63,750. At 20%, that means they're paying $12,750, for an effective rate of 17%.

A family earning $250,000/year spends 75% and saves 25%. So they're taxed on their $187,500 in spending, which leads to a tax bill of $37,500. That's an effective rate of 15%.

Any "prebate" espoused by the Fair Tax idiots simply shifts the burden from the dirt poor to the middle class. It doesn't change the inherit regressiveness of the sales tax or its hidden cousin, the VAT. This is true because the more money you have, the less you need to spend and, unless you're a complete idiot, the more you can save without breaking a sweat. And since we are taxing spending, the rich won't pay as much in tax on a percentage basis.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

If there was no corporate tax here you wouldn't have to worry about that money leaving the country. We'd be the biggest tax haven in the business world.

So you'd be all for eliminating the corporate tax but treating any resulting capital gains/dividends as ordinary income? Cause I'm down for that - eliminates the whole issue of double taxation, and treats asset-based income on the same level as labor-based income.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Any "prebate" espoused by the Fair Tax idiots simply shifts the burden from the dirt poor to the middle class. It doesn't change the inherit regressiveness of the sales tax or its hidden cousin, the VAT. This is true because the more money you have, the less you need to spend and, unless you're a complete idiot, the more you can save without breaking a sweat.

And the more that you can invest and grow the economy.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

So you'd be all for eliminating the corporate tax but treating any resulting capital gains/dividends as ordinary income? Cause I'm down for that - eliminates the whole issue of double taxation, and treats asset-based income on the same level as labor-based income.

Sure, if we go to a flat or fair tax. No more loopholes, everyone pays the same rate. The reason that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate now is because we want to encourage investing. Discouraging it would be a very bad thing for the economy.

 

[bronconick]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

They problem you have is who defines what isn't productive. For example, its takes a lot of energy to make steel. Is that now not productive?

Good thing all the manufacturing left the country decades ago. Shouldn't be a problem anymore.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

They problem you have is who defines what isn't productive. For example, its takes a lot of energy to make steel. Is that now not productive?

Mining is about the most energy-intensive activity on the planet. I'm thinkin' we probably need copper.

The way to "tax" energy inefficient industries is pretty obvious...

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

So you'd be all for eliminating the corporate tax but treating any resulting capital gains/dividends as ordinary income? Cause I'm down for that - eliminates the whole issue of double taxation, and treats asset-based income on the same level as labor-based income.

Yes. While we're at it, all the tax breaks have to go. Those box seats at Citi Field that companies get to write off as "entertainment" expenses? No more of that crap. Those are now private goods that get taxed as private gain (which is exactly what they really are, after all).

They should thank us. Have you seen the Mets play?

It would also be one small step towards driving a nail into the coffin of the current system where the public subsidizes industries paying lobbyists to bribe Congressmen to vote against the public interest. No more of that crap either. All campaign contributions have to be from private individuals and they all have to be on the public record. Let's see who's bribing whom.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Good thing all the manufacturing left the country decades ago. Shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Manufacturing output has remained constant as a percent of GDP. Its the jobs in manufacturing that have left. It winds up being cheaper to use robots here or go somewhere else with less stringent business laws.

Output Graph

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Sure, if we go to a flat or fair tax. No more loopholes, everyone pays the same rate. The reason that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate now is because we want to encourage investing. Discouraging it would be a very bad thing for the economy.

No no no, you don't get two changes to my one. It's a straight up trade, a 0% corporate tax in exchange for treating investment income as ordinary income. If you can't accept that straight up, then too bad. Corporate taxes get to stay.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

The reason that capital gains are taxed less than income is the same reason why white collar criminals go to country club prison.