ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's me. Capt. Fantasy Land.
Yeah, yeah, that's me. Capt. Fantasy Land.
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The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
It makes me shake my head, though, that the same person who wrote (and presumably 90% of the people who read) this article will with their dying breath rasp "no new taxes!" The disconnect with reality is every bit as stunning at the Kossites who refuse to cut benefits. Even moreso, perhaps, since at least the Kossites can be excused by having different things on their mind. This writer knows full well where we are headed, but will never admit that his own hidebound philosophy is half the cause.
It's the height of irony, since the only real way the rich could lose in our system is the kind of financial disaster that adherence to Reaganomics guarantees. They are spending millions to save themselves billions to ultimately cost themselves (and the rest of us) trillions. Bizarre.
It makes me shake my head, though, that the same person who wrote (and presumably 90% of the people who read) this article will with their dying breath rasp "no new taxes!" The disconnect with reality is every bit as stunning at the Kossites who refuse to cut benefits. Even moreso, perhaps, since at least the Kossites can be excused by having different things on their mind. This writer knows full well where we are headed, but will never admit that his own hidebound philosophy is half the cause.
It's the height of irony, since the only real way the rich could lose in our system is the kind of financial disaster that adherence to Reaganomics guarantees. They are spending millions to save themselves billions to ultimately cost themselves (and the rest of us) trillions. Bizarre.
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Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
You have to keep in mind though that even if you do raise taxes you are only going to collect 19% of GDP anyways. To me that argues for keeping taxes lower in an effort to try to boost the GDP side of the equation.
You have to keep in mind though that even if you do raise taxes you are only going to collect 19% of GDP anyways. To me that argues for keeping taxes lower in an effort to try to boost the GDP side of the equation.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Even if this is true, and like every rhetorical standard it may simply be "validated by infinite repetition," the real indicator of economic health is median wealth, not mean wealth. We tried trickle down and it failed spectacularly. At the very least, we can return to a genuinely progressive tax structure, particularly since it will be middle class entitlements that get hacked.
Even if this is true, and like every rhetorical standard it may simply be "validated by infinite repetition," the real indicator of economic health is median wealth, not mean wealth. We tried trickle down and it failed spectacularly. At the very least, we can return to a genuinely progressive tax structure, particularly since it will be middle class entitlements that get hacked.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Seriously, you've been bringing up this supposed argument for years now. And it still lacks just as much credability as it did the first hundred times you've spouted it off.
Get some new talking points. Please.
Seriously, you've been bringing up this supposed argument for years now. And it still lacks just as much credability as it did the first hundred times you've spouted it off.
Get some new talking points. Please.
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Take a look at the article I posted earlier to see how well the lower classes did under Reagan. All wealth transfer does is make people dependant to gov't. The poverty rate was cut in half in the 15 years prior to the "Great Society". Its has remained constant after its inception eventhough we've spent trillions trying to get rid of poverty.
How is our tax system not progressive enough when 47% of the population doesn't pay into begin with? Honestly, should 60% not pay anything? The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes while only making 20% of the income. How much more should they pay? How do you increase that amount and still keep them here. They certianly are the most mobile class.
To me it comes down to justice. I just don't think its just to say to someone that by simply doubling their production (and thereby already providing a service their fellow man) you are going to quadruple their taxes.
Take a look at the article I posted earlier to see how well the lower classes did under Reagan. All wealth transfer does is make people dependant to gov't. The poverty rate was cut in half in the 15 years prior to the "Great Society". Its has remained constant after its inception eventhough we've spent trillions trying to get rid of poverty.
How is our tax system not progressive enough when 47% of the population doesn't pay into begin with? Honestly, should 60% not pay anything? The top 1% pay 40% of the taxes while only making 20% of the income. How much more should they pay? How do you increase that amount and still keep them here. They certianly are the most mobile class.
To me it comes down to justice. I just don't think its just to say to someone that by simply doubling their production (and thereby already providing a service their fellow man) you are going to quadruple their taxes.
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
I've shown how its true over time. How about you show me something that refutes that?
I've shown how its true over time. How about you show me something that refutes that?
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
How about any of a number of other countries that have far higher tax rates? Or are you saying that America is some special phenomenon whereby it's subject to some economic law that taxes collected always = 19% of GDP?
How about any of a number of other countries that have far higher tax rates? Or are you saying that America is some special phenomenon whereby it's subject to some economic law that taxes collected always = 19% of GDP?
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Actually, my post was to highlight that this "deficit reduction plan" was nothing of the sort. It took money from programs that might have produced results (fine, that's going to happen, I'll deal with it) but at the same time we backed a truckload of cash up to the Pentagon and left it there. How about rather than using the extra $5 billion from those programs, the Pentagon find that $9 Billion that's been "missing" for a few years (or the other $9 billion that they "lost") and either give that back to the programs or use it to help pay down the debt. But let's not keep throwing money at the Pentagon.
Actually, my post was to highlight that this "deficit reduction plan" was nothing of the sort. It took money from programs that might have produced results (fine, that's going to happen, I'll deal with it) but at the same time we backed a truckload of cash up to the Pentagon and left it there. How about rather than using the extra $5 billion from those programs, the Pentagon find that $9 Billion that's been "missing" for a few years (or the other $9 billion that they "lost") and either give that back to the programs or use it to help pay down the debt. But let's not keep throwing money at the Pentagon.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
How about making your corporate friends pay ANYTHING in taxes (rather than sucking us dry with corporate welfare).
How about making your corporate friends pay ANYTHING in taxes (rather than sucking us dry with corporate welfare).
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
BS.
Everyone under 100,000 per year that has a job pays 12% in payroll taxes (except under the new stimulus which is 4.5% and 6% so 10.5%). Everyone also pays Medicare taxes which is 2.9%. If you're going to include SS and Medicare in the FIX plan like Ryan is then you have to include the fact that everyone who has a job pays into the solution already.
This whole line of "they don't pay any income tax" is crap. They do. We have the poor income tax and it's the 6% (4.5%) they pay in and the 6% they don't get from their employer cause their employer pays in. So, EVERYONE who works is paying ~13% in Federal Taxes. Of course you get a 10.5% tax rate cut after ~100,000 dollars of income. And since the Republicans use that money to pay for Wars and the Democrats use it for things like NCLB it's all the same pool of money. Thus, EVERYONE who has income pays taxes.
That sounds like more Scooby Fantasy Land talk. Better dial it back.
BS.
Everyone under 100,000 per year that has a job pays 12% in payroll taxes (except under the new stimulus which is 4.5% and 6% so 10.5%). Everyone also pays Medicare taxes which is 2.9%. If you're going to include SS and Medicare in the FIX plan like Ryan is then you have to include the fact that everyone who has a job pays into the solution already.
This whole line of "they don't pay any income tax" is crap. They do. We have the poor income tax and it's the 6% (4.5%) they pay in and the 6% they don't get from their employer cause their employer pays in. So, EVERYONE who works is paying ~13% in Federal Taxes. Of course you get a 10.5% tax rate cut after ~100,000 dollars of income. And since the Republicans use that money to pay for Wars and the Democrats use it for things like NCLB it's all the same pool of money. Thus, EVERYONE who has income pays taxes.
That sounds like more Scooby Fantasy Land talk. Better dial it back.
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leswp1
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Funniest response to article-So if we want to stop the cons from breeding, someone better make condoms easier to operate. Either that, or tell them scary, but simple, stories about the women-parts.
How do people think of these things?
Funniest response to article-So if we want to stop the cons from breeding, someone better make condoms easier to operate. Either that, or tell them scary, but simple, stories about the women-parts.
How do people think of these things?
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Recognition sounds like a step in your recovery. I salute you for this.
Recognition sounds like a step in your recovery. I salute you for this.
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Heh, I didn't get that far.
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
The 19% solution
Take a look at the graph (from the OMB) on the right side. Revenue is pretty flat compared to GDP and thats with tax rates of 70+% at times.
The 19% solution
Take a look at the graph (from the OMB) on the right side. Revenue is pretty flat compared to GDP and thats with tax rates of 70+% at times.
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
I'm all for taking away all corporate subsidies. I hate rent seeking. It would allow us to lower corporate tax rates and be more competitive overall.
Of course, you're going to have to get the Dems to play ball as they are actually providing most of the subsidies now for "green" programs. They also get the majority of lobby money.
I'm all for taking away all corporate subsidies. I hate rent seeking. It would allow us to lower corporate tax rates and be more competitive overall.
Of course, you're going to have to get the Dems to play ball as they are actually providing most of the subsidies now for "green" programs. They also get the majority of lobby money.
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
I know we've had this discussion before, but that money goes to specific programs and has nothing to do with running the gov't. In fact, the income tax revenue is now paying for those programs. So I ask again, what percentage of the population should pay for the running of the federal gov't?
I know we've had this discussion before, but that money goes to specific programs and has nothing to do with running the gov't. In fact, the income tax revenue is now paying for those programs. So I ask again, what percentage of the population should pay for the running of the federal gov't?
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker
Firstly, that's obviously not what that chart says (even though the article tries to slip it in). It takes a set of large contributers (probably carefully selected -- note the laughable bias and silly language of the article, "leftist," blah blah blah, Jesus, who talks that way outside the Echo Chamber? -- and notes Dems get more from those sources. Notice they are unions and such. Let's make a list of the top financial firms, the top energy companies, the top aerospace companies, the top pharm companies (actually, that one's probably about equally corrupt) and see where that money goes. The "leftist" narrative is, after all, that the GOP is bought and paid for by the top 1%. I'd say that's unarguably true. The only real question is whether the Dems are also bought and paid for by the top 1%.
Secondly, I don't understand why corporations pay taxes at all. I would zero out all corporate tax rates and then tax the ef out of high income earners. Let capital flow and create jobs. Collect the money from the people who have it.
Firstly, that's obviously not what that chart says (even though the article tries to slip it in). It takes a set of large contributers (probably carefully selected -- note the laughable bias and silly language of the article, "leftist," blah blah blah, Jesus, who talks that way outside the Echo Chamber? -- and notes Dems get more from those sources. Notice they are unions and such. Let's make a list of the top financial firms, the top energy companies, the top aerospace companies, the top pharm companies (actually, that one's probably about equally corrupt) and see where that money goes. The "leftist" narrative is, after all, that the GOP is bought and paid for by the top 1%. I'd say that's unarguably true. The only real question is whether the Dems are also bought and paid for by the top 1%.
Secondly, I don't understand why corporations pay taxes at all. I would zero out all corporate tax rates and then tax the ef out of high income earners. Let capital flow and create jobs. Collect the money from the people who have it.
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