The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[TimP]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

But there are programs like vouchers that enable poorer kids to afford private schools. In fact, in Milwaukee, 24% of students now get vouchers.

And I'll bet that the right-wing hick governor of Wisconsin has no problem with these vouchers being used at Christian schools, given his clear contempt for the first amendment.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Scooby, don't be stupid. Don't you get it yet? We give vouchers to the good students to go to private schools leaving only the bad ones in the public union run schools.

Except that many voucher programs are based on financial need, not on merit.

And I'll bet that the right-wing hick governor of Wisconsin has no problem with these vouchers being used at Christian schools, given his clear contempt for the first amendment.

Hahaha. How in the world does he have contempt for the first amendment?

But anyways, the Supreme Court has already adressed the establishment clause issues with voucher schools. Long story short, no dice. Good effort though.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Except that many voucher programs are based on financial need, not on merit.

Is that why examples of good students being stuck in poor schools were being used?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Is that why examples of good students being stuck in poor schools were being used?

I have no earthly idea. You're the one who tried to demagogue it by saying all vouchers do is pull good kids out of public schools and leave bad ones to rot. That's not how the program works.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I have no earthly idea. You're the one who tried to demagogue it by saying all vouchers do is pull good kids out of public schools and leave bad ones to rot. That's not how the program works.

Just taking going down the slippery slope.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Scooby, don't be stupid. Don't you get it yet? We give vouchers to the good students to go to private schools leaving only the bad ones in the public union run schools. After this happens then we can show just how bad non private schools are so the funding can be cut even more, the unions will be broken, and eventually they will be forced to shut down so it will just be privately run schools. Once more proving how the free market is superior.

Here's where our differences really show. All I want is to get every kid into a quality school for a quality education. It appears that what you really want to keep the unions from being "broken". I think private schools are showing already how superior the free market is. They perform as well as, or better than public schools. Public schools maintain an 85% share of the market. Not by virtue of superior performance, but by virtue of government subsidies. Even McDonalds and Coke don't dominate their market like that.

 

[TimP]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Hahaha. How in the world does he have contempt for the first amendment?

He's trying to have his right-wing thugs kick protesters out of the capital. Why would he do that except to silence them?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

He's trying to have his right-wing thugs kick protesters out of the capital. Why would he do that except to silence them?

The capital of Wisconsin is W. The capitol of Wisconsin is located in Madison. I'm not usually one to be pedantic, but when you start talking about "hicks" you could at least spell words properly, eh?

Anyways, so now the capitol police (who work there regardless of administration) are now "right-wing thugs"? Hilarious.

The capitol is to close each day at 6 o'clock. It has not closed for two weeks now. Understandably, the place is now quite dirty, and according to people who have been there, smells like old markers. But it's definitely "thuggery" to think that perhaps the capitol should be cleaned once in a while. Incidentally, those that resolved to stay didn't wind up getting kicked out anyways.

Interestingly, the protestors occupying the capitol may indeed bring up a first amendment issue, but not in the way you're thinking of. As I said above, the capitol is to close on weekdays at 6, weekends at 4. This rule has been waived for the protestors- fine with me. However, what if in July Fred Phelps and his band of arseholes decide that it's time to have a nice big protest in Madison, and they choose the capitol as the perfect venue? Could the police kick them out at 6? Or what if I decide that the 3rd amendment just isn't getting enough attention these days and decide to camp out at the capitol throughout May? Could the police kick me out? If they did, while letting the budget protestors stay, you could at least make the case that there is discrimination going on there, could you not?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Here's where our differences really show. All I want is to get every kid into a quality school for a quality education. It appears that what you really want to keep the unions from being "broken". I think private schools are showing already how superior the free market is. They perform as well as, or better than public schools. Public schools maintain an 85% share of the market. Not by virtue of superior performance, but by virtue of government subsidies. Even McDonalds and Coke don't dominate their market like that.

How do we know that the issues that presently ail public schools won't eventually be transferred to the privates once voucher programs become widely utilized? I have to assume that many of the benefits a private school can provide stem from parental involvement, small class sizes, quality control and probably a few others I'm failing to recognize. How much of that gets lost with the usage of vouchers? Never mind we assume that increased competition will eventually lead to better results in the publics.

Please note that I personally am not against the concept of voucher usage, but I'd rather we begin demanding more from our public schools, weeding out tenured teachers that don't produce results, and scrapping NCLB before widely implementing a voucher system.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Please note that I personally am not against the concept of voucher usage, but I'd rather we begin demanding more from our public schools, weeding out tenured teachers that don't produce results and scrapping NCLB before widely implementing a voucher system.

100% agree with that. However, that's no excuse to scrap the voucher programs we currently have, like the one in D.C. the Democrats in Washington just killed. In arguing to kill the program, Arne Duncan said:

We can’t be satisfied with saving 1 or 2 percent of children and letting 98 or 99 percent down.”

Again, I agree with that. But why not expand the voucher program then, broadening that 1-2% to bigger numbers, rather than killing the program and consigning that 1-2% back to the failing schools?

The whole saga is horrifying.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Here's where our differences really show. All I want is to get every kid into a quality school for a quality education. It appears that what you really want to keep the unions from being "broken". I think private schools are showing already how superior the free market is. They perform as well as, or better than public schools. Public schools maintain an 85% share of the market. Not by virtue of superior performance, but by virtue of government subsidies. Even McDonalds and Coke don't dominate their market like that.

Again. They get to pick their students. You seem to think that's not an important thing, but it is. If you honestly think that they're going to keep all those great results by just accepting vouchers from everyone and not inherit some of the same issues the public schools have I think you're kidding yourself.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Again. They get to pick their students.

This isn't always true though. In the DC program I keep referencing, all students could enter, and a random lottery chose who would get the vouchers (due to funding limitations). And those kids still did better in private schools, with the private schools having no choice on which ones to admit.

 

[Carter]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

This isn't always true though. In the DC program I keep referencing, all students could enter, and a random lottery chose who would get the vouchers (due to funding limitations). And those kids still did better in private schools, with the private schools having no choice on which ones to admit.

All students could enter, but wouldn't you think that the families who didn't give a **** about their kids, the kids who were probably the biggest problems in the classroom, wouldn't even make the effort to move their kids? To say nothing of the attitude that it's bad or uncool or whatever to be seen as a studious person. Those are the kids that the public schools are required to teach. Perhaps the most fair way to approach it would be to simply take those happy shiny teachers from the private school and stick them in the existing building with the existing student body. If the difference is all in the teachers, that should certainly settle the matter.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

All students could enter, but wouldn't you think that the families who didn't give a **** about their kids, the kids who were probably the biggest problems in the classroom, wouldn't even make the effort to move their kids? To say nothing of the attitude that it's bad or uncool or whatever to be seen as a studious person. Those are the kids that the public schools are required to teach. Perhaps the most fair way to approach it would be to simply take those happy shiny teachers from the private school and stick them in the existing building with the existing student body. If the difference is all in the teachers, that should certainly settle the matter.

Yeah, I'm sure some of what you mention here plays into things. I don't think anyone disputes parents role in a kid's education, and if they're really too preoccupied to fill out a simple application, that's certainly a problem that goes far beyond teachers.

At the same time though, you're kind of addressing a different point than I am. Scooby was saying that private schools only do better because they get to handpick their students. it follows from that argument then that a scenario where private schools couldn't pick their students would produce different results. But I referenced a program where private schools didn't get to pick their students, and the students still did better.

I would also kind of dispute the notion that every kid in a private school thinks it's cool to be a studious person. I'm sure there are kids there who couldn't care less about their education that attend private schools, just like there are kids in public schools like that. And again, private schools still do better.

 

[Carter]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Yeah, I'm sure some of what you mention here plays into things. I don't think anyone disputes parents role in a kid's education, and if they're really too preoccupied to fill out a simple application, that's certainly a problem that goes far beyond teachers.

At the same time though, you're kind of addressing a different point than I am. Scooby was saying that private schools only do better because they get to handpick their students. it follows from that argument then that a scenario where private schools couldn't pick their students would produce different results. But I referenced a program where private schools didn't get to pick their students, and the students still did better.

I would also kind of dispute the notion that every kid in a private school thinks it's cool to be a studious person. I'm sure there are kids there who couldn't care less about their education that attend private schools, just like there are kids in public schools like that. And again, private schools still do better.

Are the private schools required to continue to teach kids who are failing or only show up half the time, or can they dismiss them?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Are the private schools required to continue to teach kids who are failing or only show up half the time, or can they dismiss them?

Yes, they can dismiss them. That doesn't mean that such students are always dismissed of course.

At any rate, you continue to move the goalposts.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

He isnt moving goalposts he is asking for more information. The answer to all of these questions does not live in a vacuum. To better understand people need context.

You can't tell how good a steak tasted just by looking at the leftover T-bone

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Yes, they can dismiss them. That doesn't mean that such students are always dismissed of course.

At any rate, you continue to move the goalposts.

The public school can't. That makes all the difference in the world. You call that moving the goalposts is disengenous, it's exactly what I was trying to point out but Carter did a much better job at it.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

The public school can't. That makes all the difference in the world. You call that moving the goalposts is disengenous, it's exactly what I was trying to point out but Carter did a much better job at it.

No, I agree with him, it's totally an issue that needs to be adressed when talking about public vs. private schools as a broad comparison.

My point with moving the goalposts though, is that I wasn't talking about a broad comparison, I was talking about a specific case in DC, where if your theory about private schools getting to pick their students held water, the results should not have came out as they did. Or are you really saying that the DC voucher kids did well because the private schools they attended may have kicked out a couple of students? Really?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No, I agree with him, it's totally an issue that needs to be adressed when talking about public vs. private schools as a broad comparison.

My point with moving the goalposts though, is that I wasn't talking about a broad comparison, I was talking about a specific case in DC, where if your theory about private schools getting to pick their students held water, the results should not have came out as they did. Or are you really saying that the DC voucher kids did well because the private schools they attended may have kicked out a couple of students? Really?

No, it's also been shown that you stick a few less intelligent (and / or) disadvantageed kids with the smarter advantaged ones and their outcomes will be better. The problem with that is you do that enough and all you're going to do is drag the top down. I don't want that. You also drag down the middle. I don't want that either.