The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

What do you think the WI State Government will do if this passes? What is the point? Some say this is the best way to weaken the Dems. (Unions are the primary backer of Dems and if they have no power bam neither do the Dems...I think that is overkill but it does seem to make sense) I haven't read up on this much but has the Governor said what he will do with his new God power over the public employees? How much of their salary will he cut, what benefits? Is he going to cut his own salary as well? What is his endgame? Is this a temporary ban on CB or is there no end date because there is a fundamental difference. (I am serious, I have no clue and want to know)

He can't cut salary. They still will have collective bargaining power over salary. So, they will be free to negotiate for, and likely get, the usual raises (capped at inflation I believe).

The focus here is not, and never has been, on salary. It's about a pension program that state employees, on average (I understand some do pay more), currently contribute .4% to. That's outrageous.

As for how extreme he is, 24 states already limit collective bargaining, 3 banning it outright, and Missouri and Ohio looking at limiting it as well. So the "Cheesehead Pharoah" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. Is it really an extreme practice if half the states in the union already do it?

 

[icebadger]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

He can't cut salary. They still will have collective bargaining power over salary. So, they will be free to negotiate for, and likely get, the usual raises (capped at inflation I believe).

The focus here is not, and never has been, on salary. It's about a pension program that state employees, on average (I understand some do pay more), currently contribute .4% to. That's outrageous.

As for how extreme he is, 24 states already limit collective bargaining, 3 banning it outright, and Missouri and Ohio looking at limiting it as well. So the "Cheesehead Pharoah" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. Is it really an extreme practice if half the states in the union already do it?

Sure he can't cut salary, but will he allow any increases when he can hold an uncapped increase in pension and benefit costs over the heads of State employees if they want the pay raise? Not in a heartbeat. FWIW, salaries have been negotiable for years and the guv still had the power to rescind them which has been done the last 4-5 years. Why would that change now?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Sure he can't cut salary, but will he allow any increases when he can hold an uncapped increase in pension and benefit costs over the heads of State employees if they want the pay raise? Not in a heartbeat. FWIW, salaries have been negotiable for years and the guv still had the power to rescind them which has been done the last 4-5 years. Why would that change now?

Oh, I don't think it will.

I was replying more to Handy referring to this as a "new God power". I just hardly think it's that.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'd rather have the seniority and mediocrity not protected. I hate the people that suck at their jobs yet keep them for eternity because they are no longer in the probationary period and subjected to private sector-style disciplinary action / firing.

And in response to Les from the last thread about how you can't buy groceries with benefits and the cost of living issue: $55k is a very good salary in the Milwaukee area. Plus those benefits include a generous pension. Basically no one in the private sector gets that.

Thanks commie. Here that would be bargain basement price. 55K would not be something you could live on easily.

I get the whole deficit thing but I am struggling with limiting og collective bargaining. The folks giving up in negotiations are to blame, not the CB.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Scooby
This is a state issue and my tax burden. The Feds handle the economy

Do you honestly believe there is a difference? There's not anymore.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Oh, I don't think it will.

I was replying more to Handy referring to this as a "new God power". I just hardly think it's that.

If it isnt a big deal why does anyone care? To listen to you no one should even have their heart rate raised one extra beat over this yet it has sent the Dems into Tea Party mode...now part of it might be the vitriol that everyone has for each other, but I just get the feeling you are underselling this a bit since it is something you agree with

That is a ridiculously low pay in for the pension...pensions have been problematic for years. I am on his side if he wants that to change I just think his tactics are wrong and can be dangerous if used the wrong way. We dont need more of this BS from both sides, we need people to work together. If neither side can negotiate in good faith then the union should throw out their leadership and the Governor should be impeached because this is out of hand.

Also, learn the definition of hyperbole...you take what I say too seriously

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

If it isnt a big deal why does anyone care? To listen to you no one should even have their heart rate raised one extra beat over this yet it has sent the Dems into Tea Party mode...now part of it might be the vitriol that everyone has for each other, but I just get the feeling you are underselling this a bit since it is something you agree with

Oh, it's certainly their right to protest and demonstrate as much and as long as they want. In fact, I think it's wonderful. As I've said though, I just can't get behind this being some outrageous act, when half the states in the union already do it to some extent. I guess that means I'm aiding and abetting the Mubarak of the Midwest, and for that I am truly sorry.

--

In a related story, there's a funny thing about the way the Wisconsin Senate operates. You need 60% for a quorum to discuss fiscal legislation, but only 50% for non-fiscal bills. So guess what's happening on Tuesday?

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Oh yeah that reminds me...if those senators don't return in time to vote they should be ousted, or if that is against the rules they should have their salary forfeited, any perks they receive whilst being a senator revoked, there should be votes of no confidence and censures! I am all for protest, I am all for solidarity but they are walking out on their elected duty and fled the state...sorry you forfeit, and if I was the people of WI I would tell them never to come back.

This is the crap that needs to end...the more of this that happens the greater the gulf becomes.

I wish I was the Mubarak of the ANYTHING...that dude is loaded!!

 

[bronconick]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Oh, it's certainly their right to protest and demonstrate as much and as long as they want. In fact, I think it's wonderful. As I've said though, I just can't get behind this being some outrageous act, when half the states in the union already do it to some extent. I guess that means I'm aiding and abetting the Mubarak of the Midwest, and for that I am truly sorry.

--

In a related story, there's a funny thing about the way the Wisconsin Senate operates. You need 60% for a quorum to discuss fiscal legislation, but only 50% for non-fiscal bills. So guess what's happening on Tuesday?

So, if they're sufficiently ballsy, can they just have a vote eliminating collective bargaining without attaching anything about the budget to it?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

So, if they're sufficiently ballsy, can they just have a vote eliminating collective bargaining without attaching anything about the budget to it?

Yep. Though I don't think they are that ballsy. If anything, they'll confirm some appointees and maybe vote on a voter ID bill.

They might not even get to 50% now though, with some Republicans floating a compromise measure.

The proposal, written by Sen. Dale Schultz and first floated in the Republican caucus early last week, calls for most collective bargaining rights of public employee unions to be eliminated – per Mr. Walker's bill – but then reinstated in 2013, said Mr. Schultzs's chief of staff Todd Allbaugh.

What the heck is the point then?

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Yep. Though I don't think they are that ballsy.

More to the point, it'd contradict their entire rationale for cutting collective bargaining. Their sole reason is that they need to do it to solve the budgetary crisis. If they pull it out and claim it's not a budget item, then they basically screw themselves over.

not that logic has been the calling card of the tea party.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

It shouldn't be shocking, but it is: These are school teachers! Step one needs to be required remedial education.
I know, it's from Hot Air, but I haven't seen anyone else willing to publish the actual photos.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

It shouldn't be shocking, but it is: These are school teachers! Step one needs to be required remedial education.
I know, it's from Hot Air, but I haven't seen anyone else willing to publish the actual photos.

At least they all appear to be spelled correctly. Which is more than I can say about the typical Tea Party protestors I've seen.

I will say, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens 11 months from now when the recall option is available.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

At least they all appear to be spelled correctly. Which is more than I can say about the typical Tea Party protestors I've seen.

I will say, it's gonna be interesting to see what happens 11 months from now when the recall option is available.

Heh. It really won't be. He's not getting recalled. Sorry.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I love how we extend tax cuts to rich people during a budget crisis and then we squeeze the middle class to pay for it. And no I don't care State, Federal, whatever cause it's all the same thing and it's all orchestrated by the parties.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Heh. It really won't be. He's not getting recalled. Sorry.

Meh, maybe I'm jaded since Omaha is probably the most recall-happy place around (seriously, 8 of the last 9 mayors have faced an organized recall attempt). My understanding after talking with my wife (a Badger through and through) is that Wisconsin isn't nearly as trigger-happy, so the fact that they're even discussing it is newsworthy.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Meh, maybe I'm jaded since Omaha is probably the most recall-happy place around (seriously, 8 of the last 9 mayors have faced an organized recall attempt). My understanding after talking with my wife (a Badger through and through) is that Wisconsin isn't nearly as trigger-happy, so the fact that they're even discussing it is newsworthy.

Republicans talked a lot about doing it under Doyle (at least 2 big efforts from what I remember) and they both came to nothing.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I love how we extend tax cuts to rich people during a budget crisis and then we squeeze the middle class to pay for it. And no I don't care State, Federal, whatever cause it's all the same thing and it's all orchestrated by the parties.

.4% contribution. .4%!

I don't care how high you raise taxes, that's not something you tax your way out of. Believe me, Jim Doyle tried.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

.4% contribution. .4%!

I don't care how high you raise taxes, that's not something you tax your way out of. Believe me, Jim Doyle tried.

I'm curious how expenditures and contributions are calculated. If I put $1000 into an investment account and let it sit for 30 years with an average return of 5%, it'll be worthy close to $4300 at that point. Say my employer matched that, so the account has ~$8600 in it. Does that mean I only funded 13% of it, and the employer paid for 87%, give or take? Or did I really fund half of it?

I agree Wisconsin's employees are probably contributing less than they should, but disagree with your premise that it's only .4% (or perhaps more succinctly, that the taxpayers are contibuting 99.6%). Compound interest is a wonderful thing.

Also, to the degree that states raided pension funds previously and are now on the hook for what they borrowed and never paid back (not sure if that's the case in Wisconsin, but it definitely is in NY/CA/IL), well, how is that the fault of the unions or the public employees?

 

[icebadger]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

.4% contribution. .4%!

I don't care how high you raise taxes, that's not something you tax your way out of. Believe me, Jim Doyle tried.

Most of the affected employees are okay with the benefit/pension contribution increases. It's the lack of CB to prevent this increase from happening every single year that is the issue. Maybe if the guv put a cap on the annual increase just as he seeks to put a cap on the increase in salary such that the increase in benefit/pension costs doesn't exceed the salary, it would be more palatable to the employees.