The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Most of the affected employees are okay with the benefit/pension contribution increases. It's the lack of CB to prevent this increase from happening every single year that is the issue. Maybe if the guv put a cap on the annual increase just as he seeks to put a cap on the increase in salary such that the increase in benefit/pension costs doesn't exceed the salary, it would be more palatable to the employees.

Right, I recognize that. I think that's a really good, fair idea about capping the increase in contributions.

Anyways, I know CB is the big part of the issue. But Scooby was moaning about taxes, as he likes to do, and again, I was making the point that this isn't a situation that can be taxed away.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'm curious how expenditures and contributions are calculated. If I put $1000 into an investment account and let it sit for 30 years with an average return of 5%, it'll be worthy close to $4300 at that point. Say my employer matched that, so the account has ~$8600 in it. Does that mean I only funded 13% of it, and the employer paid for 87%, give or take? Or did I really fund half of it?

I agree Wisconsin's employees are probably contributing less than they should, but disagree with your premise that it's only .4% (or perhaps more succinctly, that the taxpayers are contibuting 99.6%). Compound interest is a wonderful thing.

Also, to the degree that states raided pension funds previously and are now on the hook for what they borrowed and never paid back (not sure if that's the case in Wisconsin, but it definitely is in NY/CA/IL), well, how is that the fault of the unions or the public employees?

It's all their fault that the Government decided to pay them off with pensions, and benefits instead of just paying them a salary.

Now they got caught and they expect the workers to bail them out. I'm starting to see a pattern here and quite frankly it makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[geezer]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I don't know the details in WI, but I did a job for a gentleman who worked for the DOT in WI for 20 years, then took an early retirement to a million dollar log home on Lake Superior, bought a 30-footer, and fishes 6 months a year (winters in FL). He was telling me that "all a young guy like you has to do is go work in WI for 20 years and you'll be set for life". Again, without knowing the details, it seems extravagant for someone who drove a truck for 20 years at union scale.
But then you consider that you'd have to live in Wisconsin those 20 years, and it's not worth it.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

It's all their fault that the Government decided to pay them off with pensions, and benefits instead of just paying them a salary.

Now they got caught and they expect the workers to bail them out. I'm starting to see a pattern here and quite frankly it makes me sick to my stomach.

They have every right to have a pension program. But, since it is given to them by the government, the government also has every right to ask that they contribute a reasonable amount to it. A government powerful enough to give you everything you want... and all that.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I don't know the details in WI, but I did a job for a gentleman who worked for the DOT in WI for 20 years, then took an early retirement to a million dollar log home on Lake Superior, bought a 30-footer, and fishes 6 months a year (winters in FL). He was telling me that "all a young guy like you has to do is go work in WI for 20 years and you'll be set for life". Again, without knowing the details, it seems extravagant for someone who drove a truck for 20 years at union scale.
But then you consider that you'd have to live in Wisconsin those 20 years, and it's not worth it.

Not quite sure what he's referrring to, but I know most states have a system where if years of service+age = a certain number, you can retire early. I think 20 years is probably low balling it a bit, but that would be my guess.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

They have every right to have a pension program. But, since it is given to them by the government, the government also has every right to ask that they contribute a reasonable amount to it. A government powerful enough to give you everything you want... and all that.

Sure. When do we string up the actuary who told the government that given this lavish pension program to the workers was a better deal than paying them enough money for them to save themselves? Cause you know that's what happened. Some fat Wall Street type made a lot of money investing for that program and when it went belly up during the housing crash he was on a yacht in the Atlantic.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

.4% contribution. .4%!

I don't care how high you raise taxes, that's not something you tax your way out of. Believe me, Jim Doyle tried.

Why is that the mantra? Why aren't we hearing how the taxpayer funded 99.6%? Oh wait...

So the taxpayers contributed .8% or was it a whole percent?

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I love how we extend tax cuts to rich people during a budget crisis and then we squeeze the middle class to pay for it. And no I don't care State, Federal, whatever cause it's all the same thing and it's all orchestrated by the parties.

The reason we extend tax cuts to the 'rich' is that they are the ones paying the tax. The top 25% pay over 85% of the taxes. Would you extend a tax cut to the lowest 33%? How do you cut 0?

I never liked how liberals implied we have to 'pay for' a tax cut. As if the governement has all the money and decides who gets how much. "If we give more money to a rich person, there will be less to give to a poor person." A tax cut is the government taking less of what already belongs to a person.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Sure. When do we string up the actuary who told the government that given this lavish pension program to the workers was a better deal than paying them enough money for them to save themselves? Cause you know that's what happened. Some fat Wall Street type made a lot of money investing for that program and when it went belly up during the housing crash he was on a yacht in the Atlantic.

Or the other scenario: a bunch of congressmen looked at the budget and said, "crud, we can't afford to give the teachers any raises, but we need to buy their votes for the next election. Let's just give them massive pensions instead, and then we'll be retired and cruising on yachts in the Atlantic by the time the bill comes due."

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

The reason we extend tax cuts to the 'rich' is that they are the ones paying the tax. The top 25% pay over 85% of the taxes. Would you extend a tax cut to the lowest 33%? How do you cut 0?

The top 25% also have over 99% of the wealth. I love how you guys always skip that part.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I never liked how liberals implied we have to 'pay for' a tax cut. As if the governement has all the money and decides who gets how much. "If we give more money to a rich person, there will be less to give to a poor person." A tax cut is the government taking less of what already belongs to a person.

It's more that in times of budget "crisis" - it's irresponsible to be cutting taxes, thereby making the crises that much worse.

A balanced budget means expenditures = revenue. A deficit means expenditures > revenue. Cutting revenue will not solve that problem unless you believe we're on the wrong side of the laffer curve (hint, we're not).

Perfect world? Taxes should be less. This isn't a perfect world, and it's freaking rediculous to be cutting taxes when you're already in the red.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I'm curious how expenditures and contributions are calculated. If I put $1000 into an investment account and let it sit for 30 years with an average return of 5%, it'll be worthy close to $4300 at that point. Say my employer matched that, so the account has ~$8600 in it. Does that mean I only funded 13% of it, and the employer paid for 87%, give or take? Or did I really fund half of it?

I agree Wisconsin's employees are probably contributing less than they should, but disagree with your premise that it's only .4% (or perhaps more succinctly, that the taxpayers are contibuting 99.6%). Compound interest is a wonderful thing.

Also, to the degree that states raided pension funds previously and are now on the hook for what they borrowed and never paid back (not sure if that's the case in Wisconsin, but it definitely is in NY/CA/IL), well, how is that the fault of the unions or the public employees?

I don't know if this will help or not. 2 different retirement plans,

In Wisconsin, 88% of employers offer defined contribution plans -- such as a 401(k) -- compared to just 8% that offer defined benefit plans like the kind available to government workers.

The report notes that average employer contribution for private sector plans is 5.3% of payroll, compared to the WRS(Wisc. Ret. System), in which the employer contribution ranges between 10.55% and 13.3% of payroll.

"The recent fiscal challenges facing Wisconsin state and local governments have caused a serious reevaluation of all aspects of government spending," says report author Joan Gucciardi, a Milwaukee actuary. "Yet, little attention has been given to the cost of providing pensions to public employees."

Today, virtually all government workers in Wisconsin have their pension contributions covered 100 percent by taxpayers. That benefit is included in almost all negotiated contracts with public worker unions.

I, like most people have a Contribution Plan. I put in and my company matches up to 6%. So I will always fund my plan at least 50%. While State Union folks could be fully funded by the state and still equal my 12% total contributions.

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

The top 25% also have over 99% of the wealth. I love how you guys always skip that part.

I didn't know you had it so bad Scooby. That refrigerator box must be cold this time of year. Can I send you a blanket?

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

By the way, can we put to rest the meme that public employees make more than their private sector counterparts? Even that noted liberal (/sarcasm) rag The Economist says that's not the case once education is taken into account.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/wisconsin_public_unions

 

[Wol4ine]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No. Show me how salaries of public school teachers and private school teachers compare. One example given was district attorney vs corporate lawyer. The argument isn't that public employees are overpaid, it's that public union members are overpaid. I doubt the DA belongs to a union, unlike the public teachers. If it turns out 3rd grade teachers make less in public schools than private, we can put it to rest. But if you try to tell me that the 3rd grade public school teacher went back to school during the summer break. Then got her Masters Degree (at tax payer expense I have no doubt). So she should be compared, to other teachers in private schools with masters degrees regardless of the job they do. That's where I disagree. I would argue that she is over qualified, not under paid.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

By the way, can we put to rest the meme that public employees make more than their private sector counterparts? Even that noted liberal (/sarcasm) rag The Economist says that's not the case once education is taken into account.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/wisconsin_public_unions

Hold on. It's not The Economist who says that. The Economist is citing a report by the EPI. Who sits on the board of EPI you ask? Excellent question. Let's see here. Among academics like Robert Reich, we also have:
The President of the International Association of Machinists and Allied Workers
A top ranking officer of the Service Employees Industrial Union.
President of the Communications Workers of America
President of the United Steel Workers of America
President of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees
President of Workers United
President of the AFL-CIO
President of the American Federation of Teachers

Hmmm. I'm sure they have no skin in the game.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

No. Show me how salaries of public school teachers and private school teachers compare. One example given was district attorney vs corporate lawyer. The argument isn't that public employees are overpaid, it's that public union members are overpaid. I doubt the DA belongs to a union, unlike the public teachers. If it turns out 3rd grade teachers make less in public schools than private, we can put it to rest. But if you try to tell me that the 3rd grade public school teacher went back to school during the summer break. Then got her Masters Degree (at tax payer expense I have no doubt). So she should be compared, to other teachers in private schools with masters degrees regardless of the job they do. That's where I disagree. I would argue that she is over qualified, not under paid.

Public vs. private teacher comparison.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I dont know where those numbers come from or how they figured them out, but around here there is no way a new public school teacher makes 6k more to start than a private school teacher. And the 38k to start is ridiculous, I have a teacher friend that has been teaching for 4 years and he doesnt make that. (and it is laughable that the private school counterpart makes 10k less)

I don't know what the criteria was to put the numbers together but based on my (albeit limited) experience in the Twin Cities and the surrounding Burbs I call BS. (until I see what went into the numbers)

edit: I dont dispute that the average salary for a teacher is higher than most people think...but that is mainly because long time teachers make a HUGE salary...it takes years to get to that point though. (depending on the state and the district of course)

 

[walrus]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I dont know where those numbers come from or how they figured them out, but around here there is no way a new public school teacher makes 6k more to start than a private school teacher. And the 38k to start is ridiculous, I have a teacher friend that has been teaching for 4 years and he doesnt make that. (and it is laughable that the private school counterpart makes 10k less)

I don't know what the criteria was to put the numbers together but based on my (albeit limited) experience in the Twin Cities and the surrounding Burbs I call BS. (until I see what went into the numbers)

In Maine Private school teachers make far less than public school teachers, I think thats pretty universal unless we're talking Philips-Andover or some such

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I didn't know you had it so bad Scooby. That refrigerator box must be cold this time of year. Can I send you a blanket?

No. But please ask the various branches of Government how much blood they can squeeze out of a turnip.