Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
They did name the fault under Mineral, VA "Bush's Fault"
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Bush ran the state of Texas. Obama ran........
Obviously. Whether one puts jam or peanut butter on their toast in the morning has little bearing on their future. Regardless, the life-altering decisions made by people every day--such as how much to study, if/where to attend college, etc.--have more to do with outcomes than any series of opportunities.
And it is often said that the successful people make their own opportunities.
Bush ran the state of Texas. Obama ran........
Obviously. Whether one puts jam or peanut butter on their toast in the morning has little bearing on their future. Regardless, the life-altering decisions made by people every day--such as how much to study, if/where to attend college, etc.--have more to do with outcomes than any series of opportunities.
And it is often said that the successful people make their own opportunities.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Maybe because it's true? ****, anyone who's taken Econ 101 would know that one.
Adam Smith knew that was a bad assertion. Besides your gut instinct, why should we believe your position over the father of capitalism's?
Maybe because it's true? ****, anyone who's taken Econ 101 would know that one.
Adam Smith knew that was a bad assertion. Besides your gut instinct, why should we believe your position over the father of capitalism's?
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
They spend more in nominal dollars, but not as a percentage of income. The poor and middle class spend a higher percentage of their incomes than a rich person does.
The reason the luxury tax was ablished is because it didn't hurt rich people, but people who built and made goods subject to the luxury tax.
They spend more in nominal dollars, but not as a percentage of income. The poor and middle class spend a higher percentage of their incomes than a rich person does.
The reason the luxury tax was ablished is because it didn't hurt rich people, but people who built and made goods subject to the luxury tax.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
By that argument, Jimmy Carter was more qualified to be president than Bush back in 2000.
You are assuming that the person even has the opportunity to attend college, for many people that just isn't reality.
Their is a reason that the majority of children stay in the same income segment as their parents. To believe that the child born to poor parents in the inner city is going to have the same opportunities, all intrinsic traits being the same, as the child born to parents in the affluent suburbs defies not only many soceological studies, but logic itself.
By that argument, Jimmy Carter was more qualified to be president than Bush back in 2000.
You are assuming that the person even has the opportunity to attend college, for many people that just isn't reality.
Their is a reason that the majority of children stay in the same income segment as their parents. To believe that the child born to poor parents in the inner city is going to have the same opportunities, all intrinsic traits being the same, as the child born to parents in the affluent suburbs defies not only many soceological studies, but logic itself.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Sure but no go for "some" republicans since it'll hurt businesses (by lowering consumption demand). we used to have (consumption) "luxury" tax 10% (repealed by pressure from business making those products). It's a good idea, we have one of the lowest excise (consumption) taxes in the world. And historically could increase it by 100% spread over 4 years. or increase it from 2.5% to 5% of total tax revenue.
http://factcheck.org/2008/06/breakdown-of-government-revenue/
And higher capital gains tax would be helpful. seems it's about the same % as excise (consumption) tax. 2-3% of vs about 2.5% for excise tax.
Sure but no go for "some" republicans since it'll hurt businesses (by lowering consumption demand). we used to have (consumption) "luxury" tax 10% (repealed by pressure from business making those products). It's a good idea, we have one of the lowest excise (consumption) taxes in the world. And historically could increase it by 100% spread over 4 years. or increase it from 2.5% to 5% of total tax revenue.
http://factcheck.org/2008/06/breakdown-of-government-revenue/
And higher capital gains tax would be helpful. seems it's about the same % as excise (consumption) tax. 2-3% of vs about 2.5% for excise tax.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Maybe. But both Carter and Bush are far more qualified than Obama to run any organization, let alone a government.
Again, I'm not arguing that all of the same opportunities present themselves to all people. However, ANYONE can go to college if they want to do the things necessary to make that happen. You cannot give me an example of why an inner-city child cannot end up going to college, because there are none. THAT is reality.
Maybe. But both Carter and Bush are far more qualified than Obama to run any organization, let alone a government.
Again, I'm not arguing that all of the same opportunities present themselves to all people. However, ANYONE can go to college if they want to do the things necessary to make that happen. You cannot give me an example of why an inner-city child cannot end up going to college, because there are none. THAT is reality.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I like the universal "free" college education idea (Norway etc..). But instead of the current student loan guarantee program which just drives up demand And price. We should focus on lowering the cost of education by increasing supply (of schools and teachers). This is much "simpler" supply/demand problem than our health care. And if we can't solve (lower/stop % rise) higher education cost which is simple by comparison to health care, there is no hope.
I like the universal "free" college education idea (Norway etc..). But instead of the current student loan guarantee program which just drives up demand And price. We should focus on lowering the cost of education by increasing supply (of schools and teachers). This is much "simpler" supply/demand problem than our health care. And if we can't solve (lower/stop % rise) higher education cost which is simple by comparison to health care, there is no hope.
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walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
While I agree in principle, anyone can go to college, in reality I doubt a lot of inner city kids think thats its possible. As an example,When you start gang banging at 10 years old, what are the chances you are going to college?
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Yeah our high school graduation rate is pretty dismal compared to other countries. although we have the highest % of people going to college. and #2 37.8% attaining college degree in developed countries. And yet business can't find enough "qualified" graduates.
we are #1 72.6% enrolling in college when countries like Finland, Norway with "free" college education is #2-#5. Maybe because these countries require you to pass entrance exam before getting free higher education compared to our loan guarantee program where anyone can borrow till they drop. And most on-line college will admit anyone in... with online degree rate of 8%.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/edu-education
Yeah our high school graduation rate is pretty dismal compared to other countries. although we have the highest % of people going to college. and #2 37.8% attaining college degree in developed countries. And yet business can't find enough "qualified" graduates.
we are #1 72.6% enrolling in college when countries like Finland, Norway with "free" college education is #2-#5. Maybe because these countries require you to pass entrance exam before getting free higher education compared to our loan guarantee program where anyone can borrow till they drop. And most on-line college will admit anyone in... with online degree rate of 8%.
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us-united-states/edu-education
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
It's not just about having the opportunity exist, it's as much to do with how easy it is to get that opportunity. Anyone can go to college, theoretically, but it is much more difficult for someone who grew up in a low income situation to go then it is for someone from a high income situation to go.
The person in the low income childhood has to fight against the tide, the inferior inner city schools, the generally unsupportive environment, the lack of money saved for education, the need to work to pay for basic living expenses.
The person in the high income childhood has every advantage, high quality schools, a general environment that promotes going to college, parents who are willing and able to provide financial support through college.
While the opportunity exists everywhere to go to college, the probability is not the same everywhere. The situation that the person is born into does matter, and that is absolutely not the result of the persons choices. America may still be the land of opportunity, but those opportunities are NOT equally distributed.
It's not just about having the opportunity exist, it's as much to do with how easy it is to get that opportunity. Anyone can go to college, theoretically, but it is much more difficult for someone who grew up in a low income situation to go then it is for someone from a high income situation to go.
The person in the low income childhood has to fight against the tide, the inferior inner city schools, the generally unsupportive environment, the lack of money saved for education, the need to work to pay for basic living expenses.
The person in the high income childhood has every advantage, high quality schools, a general environment that promotes going to college, parents who are willing and able to provide financial support through college.
While the opportunity exists everywhere to go to college, the probability is not the same everywhere. The situation that the person is born into does matter, and that is absolutely not the result of the persons choices. America may still be the land of opportunity, but those opportunities are NOT equally distributed.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
That's 100% true. So my solution is to make college education "free" for passing entrance exam (SAT, ACT or whatever) and getting adequate grades. And the rich folks can send their kids to private universities.
I'm sure certain % is effected by inner-city education/life situation but it's been improving for decades and it seems to me getting these kids an opportunity for college education is money better spent than trying to throw more money at elementary/secondary education.
I just watched our school board meeting about the (every day) Math and how parents are confused by it (seems like basic Algebra to me 5 +5 = changed to... 5 + = 10 or triangle), hired consultants recommended change $1-20million to basic math. But according to Super and internal staff, the reason why our student haven't improved (8 years) is because teachers are not "trained" correctly or there wasn't enough resources .
For BASIC math K-8th grade.. you need teachers with BA/Masters to take more specialized classes? And the school board is having meeting after mind-numbing meeting on this issue.
I thought the numbers would be much worst but it's not for enrollment, although graduation rate is troubling (inner city education, lack of money).
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-10-29-minority-enrollment_x.htm
That's 100% true. So my solution is to make college education "free" for passing entrance exam (SAT, ACT or whatever) and getting adequate grades. And the rich folks can send their kids to private universities.
I'm sure certain % is effected by inner-city education/life situation but it's been improving for decades and it seems to me getting these kids an opportunity for college education is money better spent than trying to throw more money at elementary/secondary education.
I just watched our school board meeting about the (every day) Math and how parents are confused by it (seems like basic Algebra to me 5 +5 = changed to... 5 + = 10 or triangle), hired consultants recommended change $1-20million to basic math. But according to Super and internal staff, the reason why our student haven't improved (8 years) is because teachers are not "trained" correctly or there wasn't enough resources .
For BASIC math K-8th grade.. you need teachers with BA/Masters to take more specialized classes? And the school board is having meeting after mind-numbing meeting on this issue.
I thought the numbers would be much worst but it's not for enrollment, although graduation rate is troubling (inner city education, lack of money).
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-10-29-minority-enrollment_x.htm
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I dont think that word means what you think it does...
Have you ever been to a school in the inner city? Check out the books they use, look at the materials they have, talk to the parents and see what their life is like...trust me when I tell you it takes more than hard work and talent to get out of there. The "reality" you are talking about doesnt exist outside of suburbia.
I dont think that word means what you think it does...
Have you ever been to a school in the inner city? Check out the books they use, look at the materials they have, talk to the parents and see what their life is like...trust me when I tell you it takes more than hard work and talent to get out of there. The "reality" you are talking about doesnt exist outside of suburbia.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
If college is becoming too expensive, where might we rein in costs?
If an education is a "right", then why allow labor unions to leverage that right for higher wages and more expensive benefit packages? As clearly shown in Wisconsin, eliminating collective bargaining in the education sector has allowed for massive savings.
If college is becoming too expensive, where might we rein in costs?
If an education is a "right", then why allow labor unions to leverage that right for higher wages and more expensive benefit packages? As clearly shown in Wisconsin, eliminating collective bargaining in the education sector has allowed for massive savings.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
You're right. It does take more than that. A person needs to make the decision to make something more of themselves. Obviously the parent(s) of these kids have made decisions that have led them to become and/or remain residents of the inner-city, so the kids need guidance from elsewhere. From who? Teachers. And if the teachers aren't making an effort to guide these kids to reach their full potential, they aren't doing their jobs. Buildings don't teach kids. Money doesn't teach kids. Teachers teach kids. Parents teach kids.
As for the "free college" bit promoted by Tundra: We might want to concentrate on trade schools first. Obviously not everyone is cut out for college; instead of guiding every kid to four year universities only to wash out with $30k in debt after two years maybe we ought to start pushing kids toward trade programs and entrepreneurship.
That, and we obviously have too many people graduating with worthless degrees--and in some cases, worthless Master's degrees. There's an epidemic of graduates who can't pay their student loans simply because they chose to study a field that has little-to-no demand for their expertise. (See: Work, Social; Studies, Women's; Psychology; History)
You're right. It does take more than that. A person needs to make the decision to make something more of themselves. Obviously the parent(s) of these kids have made decisions that have led them to become and/or remain residents of the inner-city, so the kids need guidance from elsewhere. From who? Teachers. And if the teachers aren't making an effort to guide these kids to reach their full potential, they aren't doing their jobs. Buildings don't teach kids. Money doesn't teach kids. Teachers teach kids. Parents teach kids.
As for the "free college" bit promoted by Tundra: We might want to concentrate on trade schools first. Obviously not everyone is cut out for college; instead of guiding every kid to four year universities only to wash out with $30k in debt after two years maybe we ought to start pushing kids toward trade programs and entrepreneurship.
That, and we obviously have too many people graduating with worthless degrees--and in some cases, worthless Master's degrees. There's an epidemic of graduates who can't pay their student loans simply because they chose to study a field that has little-to-no demand for their expertise. (See: Work, Social; Studies, Women's; Psychology; History)
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
OK, but UNOFAN said most real economists (giving Friedman as an example) would say flat tax proponents grossly underestimate what the true rate would be. So the question still is, what rate did Friedman say a flat tax would need to be?
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
My $0.02 on the issue.
Two generations ago my family would have been considered lower middle class, borderline lower class. We weren't a family of means by any means (on either side of my family tree). My mom was one of five children and her father was a butcher and a minister. My dad had three siblings and his father was a factory worker. Neither of my grandmothers worked (as far as I know). My great-grandparents on my dad's side were first generation Americans or came over on a boat from Norway.
Now? My brother is heading off to med school. I'm a chemical engineer, put 20% down on a 5-bed house a month after I turned 26, I'm free of debt (outside of the mortgage), and I have a sizable retirement. This isn't meant as bragging so much as it is an example that within two generations my family has jumped from the absolute bottom of the middle class to the top of it and my brother is possibly on his way to even greater things. All because there were a few generations of dedicated parents, a good work ethic, and the will to succeed. Anyone can make the jump. They just have to WANT to make the jump.
To simply dream of moving up isn't enough. You have to WANT it. You have to strive for success every day. You can't take a day off.
My $0.02 on the issue.
Two generations ago my family would have been considered lower middle class, borderline lower class. We weren't a family of means by any means (on either side of my family tree). My mom was one of five children and her father was a butcher and a minister. My dad had three siblings and his father was a factory worker. Neither of my grandmothers worked (as far as I know). My great-grandparents on my dad's side were first generation Americans or came over on a boat from Norway.
Now? My brother is heading off to med school. I'm a chemical engineer, put 20% down on a 5-bed house a month after I turned 26, I'm free of debt (outside of the mortgage), and I have a sizable retirement. This isn't meant as bragging so much as it is an example that within two generations my family has jumped from the absolute bottom of the middle class to the top of it and my brother is possibly on his way to even greater things. All because there were a few generations of dedicated parents, a good work ethic, and the will to succeed. Anyone can make the jump. They just have to WANT to make the jump.
To simply dream of moving up isn't enough. You have to WANT it. You have to strive for success every day. You can't take a day off.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
While I find your positions of promoting self-responsibility to be blunt and often accurate, your blind if you believe the above. Obama has the 10% fringe on both the right and the left totally ****ed. I have to respect that.
If the Repubs don't acknowledge some self-responsibility for the Bush debacle and spit out all their decent people in the primaries, they are going to get four more years to hate Obama.
While I find your positions of promoting self-responsibility to be blunt and often accurate, your blind if you believe the above. Obama has the 10% fringe on both the right and the left totally ****ed. I have to respect that.
If the Repubs don't acknowledge some self-responsibility for the Bush debacle and spit out all their decent people in the primaries, they are going to get four more years to hate Obama.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
There are three basic factors to a kid's education:
- the kid (how motivated and bright s/he is)
- the parent(s): supportive and involved in the kid's life or not?
- the school: safe environment with good teachers or dangerous with teachers who don't give a ****?
The biggest problems exist in the first two categories. If you have unmotivated kids with parents who don't give a **** about them, they become disruptive to other kids' learning (by not paying attention in class and having behavioral problems). I generally believe that most schools are at least reasonably safe. I also believe that motivated students with parental support can and will overcome even mediocre teachers/texts/schools. The worst combination in a 2 out of 3 being bad scenario is an unmotivated kid with no parental support; even good teachers are unlikely to make a difference. Sadly, "Stand and Deliver" is an exception, not a rule.
There are three basic factors to a kid's education:
- the kid (how motivated and bright s/he is)
- the parent(s): supportive and involved in the kid's life or not?
- the school: safe environment with good teachers or dangerous with teachers who don't give a ****?
The biggest problems exist in the first two categories. If you have unmotivated kids with parents who don't give a **** about them, they become disruptive to other kids' learning (by not paying attention in class and having behavioral problems). I generally believe that most schools are at least reasonably safe. I also believe that motivated students with parental support can and will overcome even mediocre teachers/texts/schools. The worst combination in a 2 out of 3 being bad scenario is an unmotivated kid with no parental support; even good teachers are unlikely to make a difference. Sadly, "Stand and Deliver" is an exception, not a rule.
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