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Rimbaud
New member
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Remind me again, which side likes to use this metaphor for it's leaders and followers:
Remind me again, which side likes to use this metaphor for it's leaders and followers:
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I'm too cynical to buy into that. I suspect the composition of the non-voting public isn't dramatically different from that of the people that actually show up at the polls. And again, if the winning candidate in my particular voting area is winning by about 10 points each time, my particular vote is pretty close to meaningless. Furthermore, even if my vote suddenly mattered, and I got who I wanted into office each time, chances are that ****er lied about a significant chunk of whatever crapola was claimed during the campaign to be important.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I do think that while the system we have slows change down (by design), it does allow it to happen over time. Civil rights is an example: as people become more tolerant, the bigots can only hide behind the laws for so long until their social attitudes are so out of date that the adherents literally just die off. OTOH, a lot of people had to shove for a long time for that to happen. Catholics, ethnic immigrants, Jews, blacks, women, agnostics, and gays all won their equal dignity under the law. That happened under our system, not despite it.
I still believe in American democracy, despite the corporate predations of the last 30 years. We will need to push back hard against this lazy mentality that on one hand has a magical thinking faith in the market and on the other hand closes its eyes every time powerful entities demand that government warp the market to their advantage. That can be attacked on a variety of fronts, from pointing out its hypocrisy and internal inconsistency (the conservative approach) to documenting the human tragedies it leads to (the liberal approach). We've thrown off tyrants before and we can again.
That cynicism can be an excuse to never even try to change things, though. That's my only point.
I do think that while the system we have slows change down (by design), it does allow it to happen over time. Civil rights is an example: as people become more tolerant, the bigots can only hide behind the laws for so long until their social attitudes are so out of date that the adherents literally just die off. OTOH, a lot of people had to shove for a long time for that to happen. Catholics, ethnic immigrants, Jews, blacks, women, agnostics, and gays all won their equal dignity under the law. That happened under our system, not despite it.
I still believe in American democracy, despite the corporate predations of the last 30 years. We will need to push back hard against this lazy mentality that on one hand has a magical thinking faith in the market and on the other hand closes its eyes every time powerful entities demand that government warp the market to their advantage. That can be attacked on a variety of fronts, from pointing out its hypocrisy and internal inconsistency (the conservative approach) to documenting the human tragedies it leads to (the liberal approach). We've thrown off tyrants before and we can again.
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I will give you credit as you always have impressive graphics to attack us. You must have a storehouse of it on your computer or something.
We all place faith in certain things. Some of us are just a bit more aware and up-front with it than others. It's human nature to start believing something and then to buy into further things that conform to that belief. That afflicts all of us.
I will give you credit as you always have impressive graphics to attack us. You must have a storehouse of it on your computer or something.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
My storehouse is called "the internet." Here's another:
Here's an article about the phenomenon of belief driven simply by the need to create out groups. As we do this we feel, of course, that every step of the way we are "thinking for ourselves."
And some foundations are at least theoretically falsifiable.
My storehouse is called "the internet." Here's another:
Here's an article about the phenomenon of belief driven simply by the need to create out groups. As we do this we feel, of course, that every step of the way we are "thinking for ourselves."
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Long-term, it is a losing proposition. The ignorant segments of the population are procreating at a much higher rate than the educated, so unless the offspring manage to break that cycle of "science/knowledge/education is bad", our country's future is sealed no matter how we vote over the next however many election cycles.
Long-term, it is a losing proposition. The ignorant segments of the population are procreating at a much higher rate than the educated, so unless the offspring manage to break that cycle of "science/knowledge/education is bad", our country's future is sealed no matter how we vote over the next however many election cycles.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
It never ceases to amaze me how people don't understand the difference between extremists attracted to religion for their own purposes...and the true nature of what Jesus was about. Pre printing press 14th century peasants I understand...internet savvy 21st century students not at all.
Remind me again, which side likes to use this metaphor for it's leaders and followers:
It never ceases to amaze me how people don't understand the difference between extremists attracted to religion for their own purposes...and the true nature of what Jesus was about. Pre printing press 14th century peasants I understand...internet savvy 21st century students not at all.
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I don't follow that one. Guess I just don't have the intellect to grasp it due to my religious beliefs. Such a choice to make, be believer or smart.And some foundations are at least theoretically falsifiable.
My storehouse is called "the internet." Here's another:
Here's an article about the phenomenon of belief driven simply by the need to create out groups. As we do this we feel, of course, that every step of the way we are "thinking for ourselves."
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Many of those scientists who made huge discoveries were Christians. Newton wrote more on Christianity than on science. That's not a good road for you to go down.
Rimbaud
New member
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the higher ups in the church were none too happy with some of those scientists, right?
Plus, how many huge discoveries today are made by Christians vs Atheists? Oddly enough, though, many religious higher ups are still none too happy with scientists. At least they're consistent.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the higher ups in the church were none too happy with some of those scientists, right?
Plus, how many huge discoveries today are made by Christians vs Atheists? Oddly enough, though, many religious higher ups are still none too happy with scientists. At least they're consistent.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Immigration also helps, too, since immigrants are the only people who actually have any work ethic. A couple generations in and it's snooze city (except the Jews, because they're always nervous). That's why the Scots-Irish are screwed -- you're only supposed to coast after you've made it.
That's always been true. The countervailing trend is education is a ratchet, so a certain portion of each generation of the ignorant gets enlightened. The only time it really goes in the opposite direction is Brown.
Immigration also helps, too, since immigrants are the only people who actually have any work ethic. A couple generations in and it's snooze city (except the Jews, because they're always nervous). That's why the Scots-Irish are screwed -- you're only supposed to coast after you've made it.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Roger Bacon.
Charles Darwin.
John Scopes.
Giordano Bruno.
All of them, Sheep.
Roger Bacon.
Charles Darwin.
John Scopes.
Giordano Bruno.
All of them, Sheep.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
Also, one gets the impression after reading The Starry Messenger that Galileo was so self-promoting he could have been a Palin. You'd probably have wanted to put the thumb screws to him too on general principles.
It's actually a very complicated story. It isn't the simple "Galileo persecuted for science by the Papist" story the Whigs created to scratch their itches.
Also, one gets the impression after reading The Starry Messenger that Galileo was so self-promoting he could have been a Palin. You'd probably have wanted to put the thumb screws to him too on general principles.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I'm going to give an assist to Bob on Giordano Bruno. The church's problem with him was he was actually too much of a zealot.
OTOH, giving religion credit for the accomplishments of Medieval proto-scientists is a little like giving the city of Los Angeles credit for the discoveries at Cal Tech. The Church was where you had to be to be anything during that time. It's a complicated story, but just dismissing out of hand the reactionary aspects of religion when scripture is threatened is ignoring history. I assume Bob knows this and that he's just annoyed at the simplistic contrary narrative that has arisen after the fact. Am I right, Bob?
I'm going to give an assist to Bob on Giordano Bruno. The church's problem with him was he was actually too much of a zealot.
OTOH, giving religion credit for the accomplishments of Medieval proto-scientists is a little like giving the city of Los Angeles credit for the discoveries at Cal Tech. The Church was where you had to be to be anything during that time. It's a complicated story, but just dismissing out of hand the reactionary aspects of religion when scripture is threatened is ignoring history. I assume Bob knows this and that he's just annoyed at the simplistic contrary narrative that has arisen after the fact. Am I right, Bob?
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I don't think Scopes was a scientist. Wasn't he a school teacher??
Roger Bacon O.F.M was a Franciscan Monk and definitely a scientist
Darwin started out a Unitarian but lapsed into atheism and a scientist
Bruno, a Dominican, was burned at the stake for the crime of heresy (Pantheism) and a scientist
That said, to ignore God (or whatever you call Him) in the grand scheme of things is ignorance.
We got from A-> B -> C -> D. How we got there some people call evolution, others call it "The Will of God." SOMEBODY/THING set up the rules so that we could get from A to D. Ignoring that gives, I think, chaos. But even chaos has to have some rules.
I happen to believe that the answer to question #2 of the Baltimore Catechism is correct. Some of you don't. No skin off my nose because we won't know for sure until we're dead. And then it's too late to post the official answer.
Can't figure out your point....
I don't think Scopes was a scientist. Wasn't he a school teacher??
Roger Bacon O.F.M was a Franciscan Monk and definitely a scientist
Darwin started out a Unitarian but lapsed into atheism and a scientist
Bruno, a Dominican, was burned at the stake for the crime of heresy (Pantheism) and a scientist
That said, to ignore God (or whatever you call Him) in the grand scheme of things is ignorance.
We got from A-> B -> C -> D. How we got there some people call evolution, others call it "The Will of God." SOMEBODY/THING set up the rules so that we could get from A to D. Ignoring that gives, I think, chaos. But even chaos has to have some rules.
I happen to believe that the answer to question #2 of the Baltimore Catechism is correct. Some of you don't. No skin off my nose because we won't know for sure until we're dead. And then it's too late to post the official answer.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition
I didn't call them sheep, Bob did. I was just agreeing with him.
Kepler may need to read The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth's Movement before he gets too excited about the other side of the Galileo story. The rewrite by the Church has been amazing, I agree.
Can't figure out your point....
I don't think Scopes was a scientist. Wasn't he a school teacher??
Roger Bacon O.F.M was a Franciscan Monk and definitely a scientist
Darwin started out a Unitarian but lapsed into atheism and a scientist
Bruno, a Dominican, was burned at the stake for the crime of heresy (Pantheism) and a scientist
That said, to ignore God (or whatever you call Him) in the grand scheme of things is ignorance.
We got from A-> B -> C -> D. How we got there some people call evolution, others call it "The Will of God." SOMEBODY/THING set up the rules so that we could get from A to D. Ignoring that gives, I think, chaos. But even chaos has to have some rules.
I happen to believe that the answer to question #2 of the Baltimore Catechism is correct. Some of you don't. No skin off my nose because we won't know for sure until we're dead. And then it's too late to post the official answer.
I didn't call them sheep, Bob did. I was just agreeing with him.
Kepler may need to read The Pontifical Decrees against the Earth's Movement before he gets too excited about the other side of the Galileo story. The rewrite by the Church has been amazing, I agree.
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