The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Jon Stewart just nailed this thing perfect. If you have a chance watch the Daily Show when it is replayed because he gets an A in my book!

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Jon Stewart just summed it up pretty well: The Reid plan is to the right of Boner's old plan and Boner's new plan is to the left of Obama's old plan. Everyone caved and yet no one agrees. He basically asked, "Are you behaving this way so we'll break up with you because you don't have the cajones to break up with us?

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Thank you Mr. Redundancy

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I turned him off at the very beginning when he said the Bush Tax cuts hurt the economy, but when he passed the Bush tax cuts it help create jobs.

This is a beautiful example of why we have people on both sides ignorant of what the other side is really saying. Instead of knowing what is proposed by listening the only knowledge is gleaned from regurgitated, reconstituted, and revised reporting from what ever news outlet listened to. This goes for both sides. Most of the time that version has NOTHING to do with what actually was said by either side. (I am always fascinated by the way the pundits twist the actual words.) Sad.

I did listen to both sides. I thought Boehner really was disappointing. He played to his base but did little to try to draw in those who are independent.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Or maybe the GOP simply does a better job of aligning its message with whatever it is their constituency wants to abolish/pass. I strongly disagree with your claim that so many people are voting against their own self interest - because it ignores the fact that we all have different priorities. No matter what the economic climate is, there's always going to be millions of socially-conscious voters that will primarily vote for/against candidates based on things like abortion and gay marriage. We may think it's idiotic to do that, but those people are clearly voting on what they care about, and you can't tell me they aren't voting their self interest.

The economic side is far too complicated to determine how many are actually voting against their own interests (assuming economic issues are at the top of their list of priorities in the first place). Clearly, the unemployed/poor should vote Democrat because that's the party that pushes for extensions of unemployment benefits and other social spending. The wealthy should vote Republican because that's the party that ushered in lower income and capital gains tax rates. For those of us in between those extremes, things get more complicated and depend on some combination of our tax situation and personal philosophy regarding who should pay for what and just how much government should provide - because neither party is really offering much in terms of direct benefits.

In short: whenever we start dictating to someone else what their priorities "ought" to be, we're headed down the yellow brick road to douchiness. What really makes the Ann Coulters and Bill Mahers of the world such a-holes? It's that they say "I know what you're really thinking, I know what really motivates you." And then whatever poison that has stunted them autobiographically comes boiling out under the guise of being a generalized social critique.

I respect people who say, "this I believe," and fight for it. Disagree with me all you want; just don't think for a minute you have the slightest objective knowledge, because you are assuredly just as full of poo as the rest of us.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I turned him off at the very beginning when he said the Bush Tax cuts hurt the economy, but when he passed the Bush tax cuts it help create jobs.

I guess that's a "no" to TimP's hope, then.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I turned him off at the very beginning when he said the Bush Tax cuts hurt the economy, but when he passed the Bush tax cuts it help create jobs.

Those tax cuts didn't create jobs. The home equity credit card did. When are you going to admit that tax cuts for job creators has been a failure? We're at 9.2% (reported) unemployment now and those job creator tax cuts have been here the whole time.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Kos has an inside baseball review of Congressional process every morning that is often the only way to really understand what's going on on the floor. Here's an idea it floated this morning that's pretty interesting:

I was all set to say that I thought the Senate was the more likely of the two houses to be where The Deal begins. First of all, the indications are that the measure won't raise revenues anyway, so there's no constitutional problem with starting there (not that they can't be gotten around). Secondly, it's starting to look like whatever emerges will come out close to the proposal that Reid and McConnell sort of furtively approached the other day. Third, the Senate already has a bill pending that can be used as a vehicle for debate on any such deal. (Remember the "shared sacrifice" sense of the Senate bill? It's making some more sense that it was in bill form and not a resolution now, isn't it?) And finally, I believe the plan is to try to pass something in the somewhat less crazy Senate (OMG), and use that to put pressure on the House (where the Tea is brewed stronger) to get in line and get $#*& done.

But then I saw this:

Jamie Dupree
DEBT LIMIT PROCEDURAL UPDATE - House GOP takes a Senate passed bill as vehicle for "Budget Control Act of 2011"

Not really sure off the bat why the House would want to use a Senate-passed bill for this. The only thing I can think of is that under certain circumstances, offering the text of The Deal as an amendment in the nature of a substitute to a Senate bill frees you up from having to face a motion to recommit. Could there be an issue around which a MTR from Democrats could be crafted, such that it would peel off votes from, say, hard core Tea Party members? Republicans have been pretty disciplined on MTRs to date, unlike Democrats (thanks Rahm) who never really got their groove back on them after regaining the majority in the 2006 elections. That'd certainly be a remarkable declaration of how deeply divided the Republican conference is—and how tenuous the leadership's hold on it is—if that's really the thinking.

BTW, the "not that they can't be gotten around" referenced in the first paragraph is a fascinating insight into the way Congress (and any deliberative body) really works. Essentially, the Constitutional provision that revenue bills must originate in the House can be circumvented by the Senate pulling over a House bill about anything -- say, a postage stamp to honor Chef Boyardee -- and then "amending" it by replacing its entire text with their own language that talks about revenue. The original bill number is a referenced H.R. bill so, presto, no problem! Our Congress at work.

Nothing in Boehner's "strategy" so far (roll over and bare your throat in abject terror to the TP while wringing your hands to the mainstream GOP and saying there's nothing you can do, oh god, not in the face!, and snapping whenever the Dems point out this means you aren't really in "control" of anything) suggests to me that the GOP House leadership has any intention of methodically splintering the way hypothesized above. But it's starting to look as if he personally has a real problem going forward. I really thought the Wall Street wing would ride herd by now. This is the first time in a long time the GOP had such a serious division in their ranks, and one side is going to lose publicly and fairly decisively. They are going to have to launch a hyperbolic assault on the Dems and Obama after this and hope that patches them up enough to get through 2012.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Kos has an inside baseball review of Congressional process every morning that is often the only way to really understand what's going on on the floor. Here's an idea it floated this morning that's pretty interesting:



BTW, the "not that they can't be gotten around" referenced in the first paragraph is a fascinating insight into the way Congress (and any deliberative body) really works. Essentially, the Constitutional provision that revenue bills must originate in the House can be circumvented by the Senate pulling over a House bill about anything -- say, a postage stamp to honor Chef Boyardee -- and then "amending" it by replacing its entire text with their own language that talks about revenue. The original bill number is a referenced H.R. bill so, presto, no problem! Our Congress at work.

Nothing in Boehner's "strategy" so far (roll over and bare your throat in abject terror to the TP while wringing your hands to the mainstream GOP and saying there's nothing you can do, oh god, not in the face!, and snapping whenever the Dems point out this means you aren't really in "control" of anything) suggests to me that the GOP House leadership has any intention of methodically splintering the way hypothesized above. But it's starting to look as if he personally has a real problem going forward. I really thought the Wall Street wing would ride herd by now. This is the first time in a long time the GOP had such a serious division in their ranks, and one side is going to lose publicly and fairly decisively. They are going to have to launch a hyperbolic assault on the Dems and Obama after this and hope that patches them up enough to get through 2012.

I think the Reid plan goes through because Moody's or whoever just killed the Boner plan by saying it wouldn't avoid default. It it can't do that, then what's the point of it? Having to do this again in 6 months is widely considered to be stupid by both the public and both sides of Congress (at least up until this week, Cantor, etc were against a short term extension last month).

While I dislike Reid intensely, he did give everyone a way out. Half in agreed upon discretionary cuts, half in reduced military spending on wars. Meets the dollar for dollar criteria, no taxes hikes yet, and doesn't hit entitlements yet. Not a great bill but better than default next week.

Also, Boehner needs to quit as Speaker. Clearly he's in charge of no one, and his own caucus feels no loyalty to him. May as well get a Cantor or a Ryan in there. At least they represent what the GOP is all about nowadays, so if they make a deal they most likely would have the ability to enforce it. Right now, The Boner keeps turtling (okay, okay, I couldn't resist ).

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='512' height='340'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-25-2011/armadebtdon-2011---nonfiction-captain-america'>Armadebtdon 2011 - Nonfiction Captain America</a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:512px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:393027' width='512' height='288' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

Is it bad when only Jon Stewart seems to get it?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Boner doesn't have the votes for his own plan.

The leader of a large group of House conservatives said Tuesday he was "confident" there weren't enough GOP lawmakers to pass a plan by Republican House Speaker John Boehner to increase the debt ceiling and reduce the deficit.

Rep. Jim Jordan (R., Ohio), who said the Boehner plan didn't cut spending enough, heads a group that includes 178 of the 240 Republican House lawmakers.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576470083852743922.html

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Let's send Robert Kraft down to DC and see if he can broker a deal...

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Boner doesn't have the votes for his own plan.

Club for Growth and Heritage both came out against Boehner's plan, too.

Hard to see them doing anything more here than pandering to the Tea Party. Not only has Obama said no and the Senate said no and Moody's said no and the Wall Street wing of the GOP said no, but now even Norquist is saying no. When you're too crazy even for him, you've left the solar system.

That's a pretty impressive FAIL. Fox News was carrying water for Cantor at the WH presser today, though, so they've still got them.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If Boner can't get his own deal passed in the House then there is no deal that can happen.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Let's send Robert Kraft down to DC and see if he can broker a deal...

Best suggestion yet!

Look, something has to pass the House eventually. I can see them attaching a balanced budget amendment vote to Reid's proposal. What I do see happening however is nothing passing the House without significant Dem support as the freshman/tea bagger crowd seems lost to The Boner at this point. Once that happens he may as well call it a career as Speaker of the House. If Reid's plan gets 60 votes, and that's not too hard to envision especially if McConnell signs on, I don't see how the House can reject it. Assuming Pelosi's good with that approach, and I think she is, you're looking at only needing maybe 70 GOP votes (1/4th of their total #'s) to reach 217. What I can't see is all this happening in a week's time.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Now may not be the time, but when this mess is finally over, its time for someone to replace Boner. He obviously doesn't have the support of any caucus and his own party seems to have left him.

 

[bronconick]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Now may not be the time, but when this mess is finally over, its time for someone to replace Boner. He obviously doesn't have the support of any caucus and his own party seems to have left him.

Probably a realistic reason why Obama is not going to take short term deals. There is no real Republican House leadership in this Congress. There's two semi-aligned right-wing parties that can't agree with each other, much less anyone across the aisle. Better to get this past 2012's elections, hope for a few spending extensions since a realistic budget has no chance in hell of coming out of there and hope to get the House back or the Tea Party beaten back down.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Best suggestion yet!

Look, something has to pass the House eventually.

Cut, Cap, and Balance already passed the House.

Cut - the middle class till they bleed.
Cap - the middle class with blanding iron.
Balance - the middle class with the Chinese middle class.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Cut, Cap, and Balance already passed the House.

Cut - the middle class till they bleed.
Cap - the middle class with blanding iron.
Balance - the middle class with the Chinese middle class.

Apologies, I meant to say something that can pass the Senate has to eventually pass the House. Cut, Cap and Screw won't.

But, I'll say it once again since its been one whole week: This is what you get when you elect Republicans. Brutal ideological wars that offer no helpful solutions by the time they're over. Think this is bad, wait until its time to pass a budget/fund the government next year in the midst of the Presidential race.

I appreciate people's historical view of the GOP as made up of men like Reagan, Bush I, Dole, Baker, etc. What you have to understand however, whether you voted GOP last time for Congress or sat home under the Naderesque delusion that the two parties are equally as bad as one another, is that these historical figures are no longer running the show over there, nor do they even have a seat at the table. The current GOP is Cantor, Ryan, McConnell, Walker, Kasich, Bachmann, etc - divisive figures with something other than the best interests of the country in mind.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

President O' Bachmann says she is against Boner's plan. Romney can't figure out if he's for it or against or both (there's a surprise) and TPaw courageously says he has to learn more about it. The only major support Boner has is from the US Chamber of Commerce.