The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I'm all for democracy and listening to the minority, but Obama should just grow a pair, remind the kiddies that he won so they shoudl sit down and shut up, and work with real adults (Democrats) to find a solution.

The GOP won the House in the last election and netted several Senate seats. The "I won, you lost" logic won't fly anymore.

If the GOP had any sense / brains, they would have used their gains in the last election as leverage to get the bulk of what they wanted. Of course, that was basically Obama's first offer to them (and now Reid's), and they've said no to both. So, I don't know what the **** they're trying to do anymore other than hit the self destruct button. This **** stopped making sense a long time ago.

Clearly, our government has gone from "suck" to "blow".

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The GOP won the House in the last election and netted several Senate seats. The "I won, you lost" logic won't fly anymore.

The GOP probably gave all that back with the Ryan Plan. Now the nutters in their caucus are very close to causing another Depression.

The Republicans are going to have to dump Bernanke level helicopters of money in attack ads just to get their base back and save their seats next year. There was an economist making the TV rounds yesterday who summed it up very well: the GOP is selling to their base, Obama is selling to moderates. Short term the Dems lost, big, weeks ago, but long term Obama at least is winning, and the Dems may be, too.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

But according to another post of yours a few days(?) ago, there's no such thing as moderates - just partisan non-voters who aren't participating for whatever reason.

So catering to a non-existent group won't help him at all.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

But according to another post of yours a few days(?) ago, there's no such thing as moderates - just partisan non-voters who aren't participating for whatever reason.

So catering to a non-existent group won't help him at all.

Probably true. Since all elections don't have the same results, though, something changes. Assuming radicals always turn out, the winning side is the one that gets its leaners to come out. "Moderates" really means, "moderately interested." Of whom there are many (what percentage of the Forum actually reads political threads? 5%?)

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I have to say, despite my fairly strong liberal leanings, that this is hard to argue with.

We had a popular president with a strong mandate starting in 2008 and a stranglehold on both chambers starting in 2006, and we did very little to reverse the worst six year period (2001-06) of domestic and foreign policies in a hundred years. We are still living in Dubya's America, with a predatory DOD and CIA scouring the planet for hornets' nests to stick their noses into (with a few billion here and there in contractor profits to just happen to fall out of it), a new Gilded Age of fiscal policy wholly owned and operated by huge, politically-connected corporate interests which themselves are multinational and utterly unconcerned with, if not hostile to, American values, a burgeoning police state eroding our civil liberties, and ever worsening economic conditions for the vast majority in order to bolster the personal fortunes of a very few.

There is a point when a fair man begins to suspect it isn't an accident, and the Dems are working for the same a-holes the GOP is.

But none of that justifies some quixotic Nader biting of the nose to spite the face. That's why we got those 6 years in the first place. There is still a clear difference, since the Dems can at least be strong-armed into doing the right thing from time to time. That train left the Republican station decades ago.

I am sick of rank and file Gore Apologists blaming Nader for Dubya. Al Gore was a horrid candidate who who did not deserve to win. If you cannot beat Dubya in your home state (or barely beat him in a debate...hell Gore couldnt beat Will Ferrell's Dubya in a debate) you should not be running for President plain and simple.

Blaming Nader is just sticking your head in the sand. The Dems have no one to blame but themselves. Maybe if Gore hadnt walked away from Clinton more people would have voted for him. Or you know, if he wasnt so boring even Ben Stein fell asleep during his speeches.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I am sick of rank and file Gore Apologists blaming Nader for Dubya.

Math is a Gore Apologist.

We should be grateful, in a way. If a Dem had been president on 9/11, the GOP would probably have tried to launch a coup d'etat. "For the good of the country," of course.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I am sick of rank and file Gore Apologists blaming Nader for Dubya. Al Gore was a horrid candidate who who did not deserve to win. If you cannot beat Dubya in your home state (or barely beat him in a debate...hell Gore couldnt beat Will Ferrell's Dubya in a debate) you should not be running for President plain and simple.

Blaming Nader is just sticking your head in the sand. The Dems have no one to blame but themselves. Maybe if Gore hadnt walked away from Clinton more people would have voted for him. Or you know, if he wasnt so boring even Ben Stein fell asleep during his speeches.

While that is all very true I do find it interesting that the radicals on the right work within the party system to gather power, while the radicals on the left go outside the party and subsequently destroy its power. It's no wonder were in this situation today.

Speaking of radicals and power.

Heard on Rush today that the Tea Party wants to replace Boner. Found this:

http://escapetyranny.com/2011/07/27/tea-party-wants-boehner-replaced-as-speaker/

Co-Director Jenny Beth Martin told Whispers bluntly: “We’re really not satisfied with any of them.” [Check out editorial cartoons about the Tea Party.]

She said that the Tea Party Patriots on Tuesday surveyed “tens of thousands” of their members in 3,500 affiliates about the current leadership and found these stunning results:

–81.5 percent are not satisfied with the House GOP leadership.

–74.1 percent, asked if they want a new House speaker, said yes or maybe.

–71.7 percent are not satisfied with the performance of the House.

–97.6 percent are not satisfied with the performance of the Senate.

–98.8 percent are not satisfied with Obama’s performance.

–Whopping majorities believe that their House representative and senators are more concerned with party politics than “what’s best for America.”

–62.8 percent trust neither party to fix the debt problem; 36.4 percent trust the GOP to fix it; less than one percent trust the Democrats.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If anyone needed proof that Ron Paul knows nothing about economics or monetary policy, this is it, right here.

You want to know why quantitative easing hasn't caused all that much inflation yet? It's because the Fed can sell off the treasuries to recoup the cash it sent into the economy when it bought said treasuries. And everyone knows this, and everyone knows that's what's going to happen in the medium to long term. You remove the 2nd step of that equation, and inflation shoots through the roof.

This plan may put off the debt ceiling vote, but the solution is as bad or worse than the problem.

You're assuming there is enough interest from anyone to buy the bonds in quantity. With all that is happening with the deficits/debt and the inability of Congress to address those issues, you don't think it's going to be hard to find buyers? Besides, as the article indicates, why convert an artificial liability into a real one? We're going to see inflation go through the roof eventually anyway. The debt has become so huge that the only way to pay it off is to default on it ( I doubt the gov't will do that) or inflate it away with cheaper dollars. The Fed has enough power to keep interest rates artificially low for quite a while, but sooner or later the **** is going to hit the fan.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Wow. Interesting statements by Boner:

House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) said today that some members of his own caucus who are refusing to agree to a compromise debt ceiling deal are hoping to unleash “chaos” and thus force the White House and Senate Democrats to make bigger concessions than they’re already offering. As many as 40 House Republicans, especially Tea Party members and freshmen, have demanded nothing short of changing the Constitution to include a balanced budget amendment before they would vote to raise debt ceiling, even though that has zero chance before the U.S. faces potential default on Aug. 2.

Speaking on conservative radio host Laura Ingraham’s show this morning, Boehner agreed that failing to raise the limit before the deadline would be devastating, and said the “chaos” plan won’t work when asked by Ingraham what’s motivating the recalcitrant Republicans:

BOEHNER: Well, first they want more. And my goodness, I want more too. And secondly, a lot of them believe that if we get passed August the second and we have enough chaos, we could force the Senate and the White House to accept a balanced budget amendment. I’m not sure that that — I don’t think that that strategy works. Because I think the closer we get to August the second, frankly, the less leverage we have vis a vis our colleagues in the Senate and the White House.

Boehner offers only political calculus for why this Tea Party plan wouldn’t work. He completely ignores the devastating effect a downgrade in U.S. debt and potential default would have on the American people and the global economy, who happen to be innocent bystanders to this high-stakes hostage negotiation.

Many on the left have been arguing all along that some Republicans are more interested in extorting concessions than addressing the debt issue, and are willing to blow up the economy if they don’t get their way — it’s refreshing, if troubling, to see that their leader agrees.

Wheeeeee!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Many on the left have been arguing all along that some Republicans are more interested in extorting concessions than addressing the debt issue, and are willing to blow up the economy if they don’t get their way — it’s refreshing, if troubling, to see that their leader agrees.

The sad thing is I never doubted this for a minute. Default seems the most logical outcome.

 

[walrus]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While that is all very true I do find it interesting that the radicals on the right work within the party system to gather power, while the radicals on the left go outside the party and subsequently destroy its power. It's no wonder were in this situation today.

Speaking of radicals and power.

Heard on Rush today that the Tea Party wants to replace Boner. Found this:

http://escapetyranny.com/2011/07/27/tea-party-wants-boehner-replaced-as-speaker/

What's radical about that? Are you satisfied with anything that is going on in DC?

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

You're assuming there is enough interest from anyone to buy the bonds in quantity. With all that is happening with the deficits/debt and the inability of Congress to address those issues, you don't think it's going to be hard to find buyers? Besides, as the article indicates, why convert an artificial liability into a real one? We're going to see inflation go through the roof eventually anyway. The debt has become so huge that the only way to pay it off is to default on it ( I doubt the gov't will do that) or inflate it away with cheaper dollars. The Fed has enough power to keep interest rates artificially low for quite a while, but sooner or later the **** is going to hit the fan.

Do you understand how the Fed enacts monetary policy? Hint: one of its biggest tools involves the buying and selling of treasuries.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

What's radical about that? Are you satisfied with anything that is going on in DC?

Being satisfied is pretty irrelevant at this point. 1/2 the nation wants there way, and the other half wants the other way. One side is willing to compromise, the other thinks that every compromise they have ever made has been wrong and this vote is the end all be all of their existence.

You decide which one of those is radical and which is not.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

What's radical about that? Are you satisfied with anything that is going on in DC?

Changing Speaker of the House midterm is fairly radical. Granted, Boner is too weak to be effective, but admitting as much in the middle of a shiatshow like this isn't exactly helping the GOP or the derp-party brigade be shown in anything but a negative light.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Who is running the GOP??

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=E70FBCB6-D504-4E4B-AE83-8422C8B0097B

House Republicans on Wednesday morning were calling for the firing of the Republican Study Committee top staffer after he was caught sending e-mails to conservative groups urging them to pressure GOP lawmakers to vote against a debt proposal from Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio).


Infuriated by the e-mails from Paul Teller, the executive director of the RSC, members started chanting "Fire him, fire him!" while Teller stood silently at a closed-door meetings of House Republicans.


"It was an unbelievable moment," said one GOP insider. "I've never seen anything like it."

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Wow. Interesting statements by Boner:



Wheeeeee!

Why is Boehner letting 40 Republicans hold him hostage? There are 395 other members of the House. All he needs to do is get something up for a vote that is acceptable to 218 of those 395.

If I were cynical, I'd suggest that everyone involved (Democrats included) has a certain willingness to go over the edge as long as they can pin the blame on the opposing party, though it may be worse with the GOP because the non-teabagger contingent can try to blame both the Democrats and the "renegades" in their own party.

If I were REALLY cynical, I'd suggest that at this point a significant fraction of the parties involved are more afraid of the opposing party getting credit for success than they are of failing.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

It's seems to me that the Tea Party Republicans are going for everything here with this one play. It either works and they get everything, or it fails and the entire Republican party will pay a huge price in the future. To me, the stakes are just to high to try this play with because they may end up winning this political battle, but it may be such a pyrrhic victory that they end up losing the larger political war in the next elections if they are blamed for the means to justify the ends they want.

 

[Bill]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Do you understand how the Fed enacts monetary policy? Hint: one of its biggest tools involves the buying and selling of treasuries.

So just what is it that you don''t like about Paul's suggestion? When the Fed is buying up treasuries, the gov't is in effect buying from itself and paying itself interest. He's saying that can be cancelled out and we reduce some of our debt in the process. If the Fed in turn sells those treasuries to private parties or other gov'ts, then we're paying interest to someone else and incurring an external liability. And that's assuming that other gov'ts and private parties are going to be willing to continue to buy them despite all our debt/deficit problems. There's even been talk of our credit rating being downgraded despite which way the debt ceiling discussions go, so even if we can find buyers, we're likely going to have a lot higher interest costs.

 

[bronconick]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Why is Boehner letting 40 Republicans hold him hostage? There are 395 other members of the House. All he needs to do is get something up for a vote that is acceptable to 218 of those 395.

If I were cynical, I'd suggest that everyone involved (Democrats included) has a certain willingness to go over the edge as long as they can pin the blame on the opposing party, though it may be worse with the GOP because the non-teabagger contingent can try to blame both the Democrats and the "renegades" in their own party.

If I were REALLY cynical, I'd suggest that at this point a significant fraction of the parties involved are more afraid of the opposing party getting credit for success than they are of failing.

Because 200 of the other 395 are Republicans that are ****ing down their leg at the idea of being primaried by a Tea Party candidate and losing because their supporters are farking ignorant. All those years of shoveling idiocy under the banner of stopping abortion and gay marriage and never, ever, ever paying taxes for anything is coming back to bite them right now. Unfortunately it's occurring during a period where they actually control part of the government.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

It's seems to me that the Tea Party Republicans are going for everything here with this one play. It either works and they get everything, or it fails and the entire Republican party will pay a huge price in the future. To me, the stakes are just to high to try this play with because they may end up winning this political battle, but it may be such a pyrrhic victory that they end up losing the larger political war in the next elections if they are blamed for the means to justify the ends they want.

Its a combination of a lot of things I guess, but they've been in the mode of saying "NO" to everything. Now their leaders are asking them to do something proactive, and they're having trouble turning the ship around on a dime. You can't say "NO" to raising the debt ceiling. I'm guessing a lot of them thought they could get away with voting against it while a coalition of moderates & Dems pushed it over the finish line. That's not going to happen as the Pelosi/Hoyer team went through this already with the TARP and like that time won't give their votes while the other side avoids responsibility. This is a BIG failure of the Republican leadership. When Gingrich needed to win votes he delivered despite the misgivings of his membership. House leaders should have known who they could and couldn't count on long before now.