The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Dayton offered to only increase taxes on those making more than 1 million dollars at the end. That still wasn't good enough. You can't raise taxes on the folks who have all the money cause they also have all the power. We're going into default.

Just curious, but why does Minnesota need three times the budget of Iowa with only about 166% of the population level? I only noticed since we were facing a gov't shutdown too (averted on the last day of the fiscal year). Now, maybe Iowa simply shifts the spending to the local level moreso than Minnesota, but the huge difference in state budgets was somewhat startling.

Minnesota: $34 billion two-year budget for 5.1 million people ($3333 per person per year)
Iowa: $6 billion one-year budget for 3 million people. ($2000 per person per year)
Nebraska: $7 billion two-year budget for 1.8 million people. ($1950 per person per year)

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Just curious, but why does Minnesota need three times the budget of Iowa with only about 166% of the population level? I only noticed since we were facing a gov't shutdown too (averted on the last day of the fiscal year). Now, maybe Iowa simply shifts the spending to the local level moreso than Minnesota, but the huge difference in state budgets was somewhat startling.

Minnesota: $34 billion two-year budget for 5.1 million people ($3333 per person per year)
Iowa: $6 billion one-year budget for 3 million people. ($2000 per person per year)
Nebraska: $7 billion two-year budget for 1.8 million people. ($1950 per person per year)

Because Minnesota decided that schools would be paid for by the State instead of locally. That was done under Ventura I believe.

 

[busterman62]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Just curious, but why does Minnesota need three times the budget of Iowa with only about 166% of the population level?

Hockey Expenditures?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Hockey Expenditures?

Alcohol treatment?

No wait, that's Wisconsin.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While I do think they'll get something done before the debt ceiling deadline we won't see a collapse if level isn't raised. As long as the first money going out of the gov't goes towards debt payments nothing major is going to happen fiscally. The gov't is taking in more than enough to cover those costs. What will happen is the gov't will actually have to live within its means and some pretty big cuts are going to have to take place.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

we won't see a collapse if level isn't raised. As long as the first money going out of the gov't goes towards debt payments nothing major is going to happen fiscally.

And when you're proven wrong yet again, I'm sure you'll admit that and apologize for ruining the economy for everyone, right? Right? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While I do think they'll get something done before the debt ceiling deadline we won't see a collapse if level isn't raised.

Delusion for the win.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While I do think they'll get something done before the debt ceiling deadline we won't see a collapse if level isn't raised. As long as the first money going out of the gov't goes towards debt payments nothing major is going to happen fiscally. The gov't is taking in more than enough to cover those costs. What will happen is the gov't will actually have to live within its means and some pretty big cuts are going to have to take place.

So you wouldn't have any problem with your employer choosing to make debt payments rather than payroll?

The government also has contracts that they are obligated to pay to vendors (defense contractors, medicare reimbursement to doctors, etc). Failing to pay those may not send the global financial world into a free fall, but would you want to do business with a company who isn't paying it's suppliers and employees? Doing that would send any major companies credit rating directly down the toilet. Should the US treasury lose its investment grade status, it won't matter if the US pays all of its debts because various large bond holders (pension funds and such) are only allowed to hold investment grade notes. At that point, it won't matter if the federal government has defaulted on the bond debt, because they have failed to live up to their other financial obligations.

I'm more than willing to slash spending to 20% (from ~25% total GDP today) but only if we increase taxes to raise revenues to cover that 20% (from ~15% total GDP today).

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So you wouldn't have any problem with your employer choosing to make debt payments rather than payroll?

The government also has contracts that they are obligated to pay to vendors (defense contractors, medicare reimbursement to doctors, etc). Failing to pay those may not send the global financial world into a free fall, but would you want to do business with a company who isn't paying it's suppliers and employees? Doing that would send any major companies credit rating directly down the toilet. Should the US treasury lose its investment grade status, it won't matter if the US pays all of its debts because various large bond holders (pension funds and such) are only allowed to hold investment grade notes. At that point, it won't matter if the federal government has defaulted on the bond debt, because they have failed to live up to their other financial obligations.

I'm more than willing to slash spending to 20% (from ~25% total GDP today) but only if we increase taxes to raise revenues to cover that 20% (from ~15% total GDP today).

The gov't is still taking in $2.1T. They are going to be able to pay most of their obligations. You would just see cuts in anything that isn't absolutely necessary. Unless we can't live without shrimp running on treadmills.

Again, I don't see this happening but I don't think it will be the end of the world if it does. We somehow managed to live with $2.4T worth of gov't (in today's dollars) back in 2000. I think we can handle doing it again.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So you wouldn't have any problem with your employer choosing to make debt payments rather than payroll?

They "create jobs" so they can do whatever they want.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

While I do think they'll get something done before the debt ceiling deadline we won't see a collapse if level isn't raised. As long as the first money going out of the gov't goes towards debt payments nothing major is going to happen fiscally. The gov't is taking in more than enough to cover those costs. What will happen is the gov't will actually have to live within its means and some pretty big cuts are going to have to take place.

I'll see your talking point and raise you.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Because Minnesota decided that schools would be paid for by the State instead of locally. That was done under Ventura I believe.

They are still paid for locally to some degree - I imagine that most if not all school districts in the state have some sort of local operating levy funded via property taxes. They certainly try to add to said levies darn near every election cycle.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

They are still paid for locally to some degree - I imagine that most if not all school districts in the state have some sort of local operating levy funded via property taxes. They certainly try to add to said levies darn near every election cycle.

No. They pass levies for "extra stuff" or to make up the difference that the State isn't giving them cause they're screwing them. School is paid for at the State level in Minnesota.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

No. They pass levies for "extra stuff" or to make up the difference that the State isn't giving them cause they're screwing them. School is paid for at the State level in Minnesota.

Whatever their reasons, they have levies funded by property taxes. That is local funding.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Whatever their reasons, they have levies funded by property taxes. That is local funding.

Your point? Someone asked why our budget is so much larger than other states. That's why. Also, there are very strict rules on operating levies and what the school districts can actually ask for and attempt to get. It's not like a rich suburb such as the one I live in can pass a huge levy to net a huge competitive advantage over other districts. It's just not allowed.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burdens_bystate_1977-2009-20110223.pdf
State+local tax burden by state (2009):
Iowa 24th
Nebraska 15th
Minnesota 7th

The simple fact of the matter is MN taxes and spends more than those two states, regardless of where the education funding is obtained (note: wisconsin taxes and spends a bit more than MN does - they have the 4th highest tax burden).

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sl_burdens_bystate_1977-2009-20110223.pdf
State+local tax burden by state (2009):
Iowa 24th
Nebraska 15th
Minnesota 7th

The simple fact of the matter is MN taxes and spends more than those two states, regardless of where the education funding is obtained (note: wisconsin taxes and spends a bit more than MN does - they have the 4th highest tax burden).

Apparently all the rich people want to move already. You slash Minnesota school funding to be less than Iowa by your chart there and this place will be nothing but a semi-warm Siberia.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Apparently all the rich people want to move already. You slash Minnesota school funding to be less than Iowa by your chart there and this place will be nothing but a semi-warm Siberia.

Iowa's schools aren't exactly ****, you know. We're not saying Minnesota has to turn into a colder Mississippi, I was just somewhat amazed how much higher Minnesota's tax burden was, in general.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Is school spending a true measure of success or excess or both??

 

[Patman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So you wouldn't have any problem with your employer choosing to make debt payments rather than payroll?

When you retire will you be glad that your country is worth 1/8th what it is today? So many questions...

Point blank, the dreams of the social democracy are not obtainable unless one wants to repeatedly default on debt... or in other words, steal money from gullible nations. The cut is coming whether one eventually raises taxes or not. All we're doing is choosing peril now as opposed to peril later... the democrats are counting on that you will not give one bit of concern to the peril later despite it being a more severe peril than to deal with the peril now. Afterall, ignoring later peril in order to spend today allows the legislators of today to be worshipped for their "goodness" and lets us feel like we can create the social democracy... or rather we won't give up on the idea that its possible. That's what this is about. Its about the dream of the building of the ideal society... we'd rather not give up on the dream and take our nation into a long-run tank than to deal with the issue now.

Yes, there are issues with not raising the debt limit... but you know what... if we just raise it out of the fear of what will happen if we won't then we will SURELY visit the problem that will happen if we will raise... because we'll need to keep raising... we will never face up to the problems... because we're cowards who want to believe.

Yet, we ask ourselves... is it those dastardly republicans stopping the hearts of the fair minded.... or is the democrats leading the army of the deluded? Depends? If we raised the limit what would happen and one who's terms? Those terms will dictate the future... and I can tell you, as long as we fear the debt ceiling and the implication of default then we play directly into the hands of those who will destroy our future because we give all the leverage to those who want to spend, who want to bring a fantasy to life, whose relationship with the truth is merely tangential. Sure, you may be fair minded... but who has the leverage if we fear the default and the ceiling? Certainly not the fair minded.