The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Is school spending a true measure of success or excess or both??

It all depends on other factors. In most states, school spending and student success are both highly correlated with a third variable, parental income, so it's difficult to draw conclusions either way. You would have to do a systematic study holding other things equal, and of course it depends on what you're spending on. A new basketball court or a new level of administrative bureaucracy has no positive effect on students, while getting them new books or, sadly, installing metal detectors, does.

This is very much like the old false NRA argument that gun control laws don't work because there are strict gun control laws in many places with gun violence. Well, duh, that's why they put in the laws. Correlation is not causality.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Our superintendent just retired. In the 11 years of his tenure, the number of AP tests taken went way up, but test (SAT) scores stayed flat. Spending per pupil increased by $6,000.

I don't know if we got good value.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Nice article in the WaPo. History does repeat itself.

Also nice comment by a reader. 1971 you could buy a nice house for 400 ounces of gold. Today, that same 400 ounces will still get you a nice house.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Our superintendent just retired. In the 11 years of his tenure, the number of AP tests taken went way up, but test (SAT) scores stayed flat. Spending per pupil increased by $6,000.

I don't know if we got good value.

Got a source for that figure?

And that guy who made the comment about gold is an idiot, like pretty much everyone who acts like the gold standard is the answer to monetary woes. It looks like you even pointed out that his numbers were off.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Apparently all the rich people want to move already. You slash Minnesota school funding to be less than Iowa by your chart there and this place will be nothing but a semi-warm Siberia.

Iowa's ACT scores are consistently on par with ours. I know there's more ways to measure how good a state's education system is, but that's certainly one indication that they aren't exactly a northern version of Alabama.

 

[joecct]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Got a source for that figure?

And that guy who made the comment about gold is an idiot, like pretty much everyone who acts like the gold standard is the answer to monetary woes. It looks like you even pointed out that his numbers were off.

http://www.gazette.net/article/20110629/NEWS/706299951&template=gazette

Montgomery County, Maryland.

And if you do the math the guy used, it did not add up. Though 400,000 will get you a nice home in the same county. Not a great big house, but a nice 3BR, 2BA

 

[Patman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

http://www.gazette.net/article/20110629/NEWS/706299951&template=gazette

Montgomery County, Maryland.

And if you do the math the guy used, it did not add up. Though 400,000 will get you a nice home in the same county. Not a great big house, but a nice 3BR, 2BA

Note that they don't cite performance on those AP exams... so it sounds like they freed up some resources to teach AP... but beyond that did not much of anything but suck money out of people desperate to make their little sunshine the light of the world. I'm so very glad I didn't have to grow up in this suburban washington educational rat race.

edit: I find it interesting that such a small gain creates the "envy of...."... it makes me wonder what kind of marginal gains exist in education after a certain point. Education requires two things... conscientious students (as enforced by parents) and the ability of teaching. The latter is not necessarily the easiest thing to assess... sure, you can tell where it all goes wrong but that might be not such much the right amount of money but the right administrators and the lack of an entrenched bad teacher class (with unionization and the inability to fire, these situations become their own problems... who is going to want to work at a place that can't improve as they can't discharge the problems). So, again, that being said, I'm not sure throwing money is probably as much of an issue but rather oversight by a conscientious community. I have to think $6000 more isn't the main driver but rather washington's continued increase in size and the focus of a highly educated parental class who keep tabs on their kid's education.

To me, teaching is probably more about management and teaching skill... so often in the eye of the beholder and so often gone astray... so its not really a function of money except as a proxy for parental priority and concern expressed through the parents own education and financial being. Its only a function of money consequential in that the money is brought in by higher incomes by educated parents.

Of course, I still think all you really need is a stack of cheap (cost) books and a good white board to teach. Desire, intellectual genetics, good teaching ability, and resources. I think the last one, resources, is overblown when you deal with the next most shiny technology but critical when your desks are broken.

---

Only 400K for 3BR, 2BA? Must be small

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Iowa's schools aren't exactly ****, you know. We're not saying Minnesota has to turn into a colder Mississippi, I was just somewhat amazed how much higher Minnesota's tax burden was, in general.

Regarding education, MN has a more diverse population which creates more educational challenges than you would find in Iowa or Nebraska. I wouldn't expect Michigan or Florida to score very well...even if they had the best education in the country.

A couple of drivers for the higher burden...including slightly colder weather, slightly higher GDP/capita and real estate values. IMO the big thing is that MN has more Fortune 500 companies per person than any other state and this requires infrastructure that only the local govt can provide.

In the end, it works well for the population also...as I mentioned before, the state has 5 of the top 20 cities iin the country for quality of life (CNN/Money) and had the highest population growth rate in the great lakes region. If you are fine with a more typical state with somewhat lower taxes, MN is not your place.

 

[Patman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Regarding education, MN has a more diverse population which creates more educational challenges than you would find in Iowa or Nebraska. I wouldn't expect Michigan or Florida to score very well...even if they had the best education in the country.

I thought diversity was a good thing

Though, I would get some enjoyment out of somebody explaining how diversity causes educational challenges... the knot tying alone...

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

http://www.gazette.net/article/20110629/NEWS/706299951&template=gazette

Montgomery County, Maryland.

And if you do the math the guy used, it did not add up. Though 400,000 will get you a nice home in the same county. Not a great big house, but a nice 3BR, 2BA

Hard to make any kind of comment on how the money was spent when it is just overall figures.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Iowa's ACT scores are consistently on par with ours. I know there's more ways to measure how good a state's education system is, but that's certainly one indication that they aren't exactly a northern version of Alabama.

Test scores? Wow, good one.

You know much like I am in favor of abolishing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, I'm also in favor of abolishing public schools. It gets tiring trying to have meaningful and logical discussions about what actually is going on with them.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Test scores? Wow, good one.

You know much like I am in favor of abolishing Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, I'm also in favor of abolishing public schools.

Questioning the difference in spending now means we want to abolish it all? W T F, mate.

And then you wonder why no one wants to talk seriously?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Questioning the difference in spending now means we want to abolish it all? W T F, mate.

And then you wonder why no one wants to talk seriously?

When a simple discussion about where the majority of school funding comes from in Minnesota devolves into comparison's to Iowa and test scores then yes, I say abolish it all. Quite frankly if it were all at the local level (which is how this digression occurred) it wouldn't even have been brought up in the first place.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

In today's news:

Los Angeles mayor Antonio Villaraigosa says "dithering" on the debt ceiling is "political malpractice." "Democrats and Republicans need to figure this out, that's their job."

John Cornyn thinks there could be a "mini-deal" on the debt ceiling which will delay Judgment Day. (not sure if this was meant as a factual statement)

Cornyn and McCain have reiterated that letting the tax cuts expire (as they were supposed to) is off the table, but both said closing loopholes and getting rid of tax breaks is an option, but failed to state which loopholes or tax breaks they would target.

Donald Rumsfeld says that cutting the Defense budget would be a "grievous error."

Chuck Schumer said Medicare was on the table, then got called a sellout by liberal groups and promptly said Medicare was off the table.

So cutting Defense spending seems to be off the table (in which district are there 0 defense jobs?) Revenues are off the table. Medicare is off the table. Seems like an awfully small table.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So cutting Defense spending seems to be off the table (in which district are there 0 defense jobs?) Revenues are off the table. Medicare is off the table. Seems like an awfully small table.

The US follows Minnesota into shutdown. It's amazing how these two are paralleling each other so closely.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I thought diversity was a good thing

Though, I would get some enjoyment out of somebody explaining how diversity causes educational challenges... the knot tying alone...

Are you advocating that educating diverse peoples such as American Indians, Asians, Indians, Hispanics and Somolis is just as easy/cheap as a homogenious population? I don't think you'd have many supporters for that position. Unfortunate as they are, extended inner city challenges are often also an outcome of diversity.

Certain Americans may not appreciate diversity...but it is in fact a significant positive as it leads to a richer and for many, more interestng society. I did say that Minnesota had the 5 of the top 20 cities (each of which are increasingly diverse), growth leading the great lakes and an extremely vibrant business community. With international cultural diversity in the state gaining rather quickly...it would be hard to imagine that these largely positive state outcomes of quality of life and business environment happened if diversity was actually hurting the state.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

When a simple discussion about where the majority of school funding comes from in Minnesota devolves into comparison's to Iowa and test scores then yes, I say abolish it all. Quite frankly if it were all at the local level (which is how this digression occurred) it wouldn't even have been brought up in the first place.

The source of the funding does not change our tax burden relative to the other states (if the source was local, our property taxes would be double what they are now), and unless you can show some sort of clear-cut advantage that we supposedly have in education over nearby states that spend less, then there is little or no justification whatsoever in maintaining this level of spending.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Hmmm.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The proposed amendment does a little more than require a "balanced budget."

What could be more prudent than balancing the books every year? In fact, forcibly balancing the federal budget each year would be like telling families they cannot take out a mortgage or a car loan, or do any other borrowing, no matter how sensible the purchase or how creditworthy they may be.

Worse, the balanced budget amendment that Republicans put on the table is far more extreme than just requiring the government to spend no more than it takes in each year in taxes.

The government would be forbidden from borrowing to finance any spending, unless a supermajority agreed to the borrowing. In addition to mandating a yearly balance, both the House and Senate versions would cap the level of federal spending at 18 percent of gross domestic product.

That would amount to a permanent limit on the size of government — at a level last seen in the 1960s, before Medicare and Medicaid, before major environmental legislation like the Clean Water Act, and long before the baby-boom generation was facing retirement. The spending cuts implied by such a cap are so draconian that even the budget recently passed by House Republicans — and condemned by the public for its gutting of Medicare — would not be tough enough.

Under the proposed amendments, the spending cap would apply even if the government collected enough in taxes to spend above the limit, unless two-thirds of lawmakers voted to raise the cap. More likely, antitax lawmakers would vote to disburse the money via tax cuts. Once enacted, tax cuts would be virtually irreversible, since a two-thirds vote in both houses would be required to raise any new tax revenue.

Wheeee!

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Hmmm.

So, what happened was:

Wars
Boomers
Tax cuts

We need to get rid of all three.