Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

[Beer Pong Horn]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Some existing NCAA DIII schools that could, IMO, (if they wanted too) add hockey:

Lyndon State (VT), has ACHA Club Team - currently NCAA provisional member

Geneva College (PA), could play here.

Penn State Harrisburg, could start playing here.

Lancaster Bible College (PA), could start playing here.

Northwestern College (MN), St. Paul, MN might have a rink or two.

Specifically about Northwestern College... heh. Saw their club team play Finlandia University the year before FU stepped up to D-III status. Well, "play" is too broad a term - they lost both games by 20 points each.

There's lots of ice available nearby (no rink on campus), and a fair amount of native talent, but I don't even know if they have a club team at the moment and I know they've never hired a hockey coach. Can't rule them out entirely, but I doubt they're interested in starting hockey.

 

[nut_case]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

For the record, Ithaca did have a team in the 1970's, which played at Lynah Rink. Can't recall why the dropped the program.

 

[sbkbghockey]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Im not so sure most of these teams would join NCAA. There are huge Title IX issues and most schools are struggling for funds. Im sure Norm has info to go against this but that’s what I hear when I talk to ACHA programs.
We play Montclair and can tell you they wont be going NCAA anytime soon.
No Penn State on here?
Lindenwood?
Illinois?

I will say NCAA needs to do something soon about this issue because each year ACHA gets closer and closer to NCAA level(DIII). If they wait another 5 years they’ll be competing for the same players. Im head coach for a ACHA program and I played at Elmira. So Im not completely bias towards ACHA, I understand NCAA. Ill be clear, ACHA is NOT NCAA. It is what it is. But I have 3 kids on my team that are NCAA DIII overflows with 2 more looking to transfer in next semester. And Im a mid level ACHA program. A team in our league has 6 kids from Europe and 10 kids from the AJ and EJ Jr leagues. That doesn’t necessarily make them good, but it shows ACHA programs are organized and with resources get players. With the talent pool getting bigger and NCAA staying the same players need places to play.
Don’t flame me, just my 2 cents

Someone was telling me that NCAA is actually in the works for a NCAA DIV to absorb ACHA. No idea if that’s true or not.

This is a great post!!! I dont see many of the ACHA schools moving to DIII hockey anytime soon either. Most of the top ACHA programs that could compete now or could compete with minor tweaking once they do go DIII are prob going to stay in the ACHA DI where they can play other big schools like Illinois, Penn State, etc... and also compete and dominate at the ACHA level.

The organization and talent of ACHA teams esp at ACHA DI and some of the top ACHA DII schools has increased dramatically over the past few years and i agree with more talent than NCAA schools we're going to see ACHA teams get even better and come close to matching the talent level of NCAA DIII. I think in the future we're going to see more ACHA-NCAA matchups like Penn State has a few times per season with top ACHA teams playing and competeing in 5-10 games per season against NCAA DIII teams.

 

[Ironman33]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

For the record, Ithaca did have a team in the 1970's, which played at Lynah Rink. Can't recall why the dropped the program.

Ithaca will NEVER have hockey, the do not have a facility, being the 3rd wheel at Lynah won't work and they put a large amount of resources into being a football/baseball powerhouse.

In general, any school that adds hockey in this economic climate is crazy, unless they own a rink. Adding men's hockey is expensive and adding a women's sport to counterbalance title IX is very expensive. Coaches are getting $40-60G added to an operation budget starts to add up.

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

I think in the future we're going to see more ACHA-NCAA matchups like Penn State has a few times per season with top ACHA teams playing and competeing in 5-10 games per season against NCAA DIII teams.

That many isn't possible as only one exhibition is allowed per season for DIII teams.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

That many isn't possible as only one exhibition is allowed per season for DIII teams.

Are you saying ACHA rules prohibit a team like Penn State from playing against 4 or 5 different NCAA DIII Teams in one season? (Similar to what the GMHL ALL-STARS did last season?)

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Are you saying ACHA rules prohibit a team like Penn State from playing against 4 or 5 different NCAA DIII Teams in one season? (Similar to what the GMHL ALL-STARS did last season?)

What part of "DIII teams are only allowed one exhibition game per season" is so hard to understand?

Take that into account and pair it up with the possibility of numerous ACHA teams playing 5-10 games against DIII teams per season and it's quickly obvious that not only is it not going to happen for a variety of reasons, but that at a limiting point it also becomes mathematically impossible. Take the DIII teams who don't feel like wasting their time out of the equation and the numbers get even worse.

Penn State or someone might be able to pull it off if they work at it, but to expect some sort of meaningful crossover is wishful thinking at best and idiocy at worst.

It's also pretty **** comical but I'm not one to rain on parades, so I look forward to reading abou this for ten more years.

 

[Dyce]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Matthew stated it pretty bluntly, but to elaborate on some of the unworkable aspects of ACHA-DIII synergy:

- Yes, it is technically possible for an ACHA team to tour DIII programs over the course of their preseason exhibitions. However, considering a) the relatively small temporal window during which these exhibitions occur, and b) the travel costs associated with such a tour, it really is unfeasible to engineer any such venture that would amount to a meaningful number of games.

- Even if a team (the example being tossed around is Penn State, so let's go with them) could swing this exhibition tour, it would amount to a handful of games against teams still tinkering with their lines, plays, etc. From the DIII end, each and every one of the exhibitions would be considered nothing more than just that: a rehearsal for the season to come.

- It was a relatively isolated thing this season, but Plattsburgh's exhibition versus Concordia might signal an increased willingness of CIS teams to fill exhibition slots versus DIII programs. If this is the case, the historical level of play among Canadian universities would almost certainly provide a more enticing alternative to the ACHA.

Honestly, I see neither any real incentive for DIII teams to enhance the quality of ACHA play through increased cooperation with the league, nor any particular ability developing in the ACHA to lure prospects from DIII (beyond a desire to attend a particular school regardless of NCAA non-participation that has existed unchanged for the entire existence of club hockey).

 

[PioneeerHockeyDU19]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Noticed that mid level ACHA Div I team, Iowa State, will be heading to CIS #6Manitoba next week. How did Plattsburg and Concordia turnout? While ISU will be in over their heads next weekend, I see that most NCAA Div III teams would have no problem with the majority of the CIS teams.

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Matthew stated it pretty bluntly

After reading what I wrote again, I should clarify that what I said is based the way many DIII teams would view numerous games against ACHA competition and not necessarily my own beliefs.

Personally, I'm fairly much indifferent when it comes to this.

 

[joecct]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

After reading what I wrote again, I should clarify that what I said is based the way many DIII teams would view numerous games against ACHA competition and not necessarily my own beliefs.

Personally, I'm fairly much indifferent when it comes to this.

When Penn State came to our barn last year it was their Super Bowl and a chance to prove that ACHA is just as good as D-III. They nearly did it.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Matthew stated it pretty bluntly, but to elaborate on some of the unworkable aspects of ACHA-DIII synergy:

- Yes, it is technically possible for an ACHA team to tour DIII programs over the course of their preseason exhibitions. However, considering a) the relatively small temporal window during which these exhibitions occur, and b) the travel costs associated with such a tour, it really is unfeasible to engineer any such venture that would amount to a meaningful number of games.

...

Dyce, thank you for clarifying that "technically", an ACHA team could, if it wanted to - AND - it had both the financial resources and could find willing NCAA DIII schools, play 4 or 5 DIII games in a season.

I am a little confused by the "temporal window", however, are you saying the single NCAA allotted exhibition game must occur prior to the first game (Particularly, for example, Geneseo played an exhibition game against the USA Under-18 Team this past January 31, and Fredonia plays an exhibition game against York on January 12, 2010)

Couple of other threads of potential interest:
ACHA vs NCAA

Difference between ACHA and NCAA

 

[Dyce]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

I am a little confused by the "temporal window", however, are you saying the single NCAA allotted exhibition game must occur prior to the first game (Particularly, for example, Geneseo played an exhibition game against the USA Under-18 Team this past January 31, and Fredonia plays an exhibition game against York on January 12, 2010)

Yeah, got a little opaque with my wording there, sorry. It was actually a combination of two effects that I had in mind. First, the number of available dates is relatively limited (the beginning of the season and prior to the resumption of conference play in the winter are when most teams, and particularly quality teams, would prefer to schedule these games). Second, the games would have to be scheduled in a way that made sense travel-wise: for example, it might sound great if an ACHA team heard that St. Norbert was looking for an exhibition opponent on a Friday evening, and Oswego on Saturday, but it'd probably be unfeasible to travel to both, so one of the already limited number of dates would be lost.

I just think it would take too much coordination to make such an exhibition "tour" logistically sound: if it were the DIII teams catering to the needs of the exhibition opponent's schedule (as I suspect is often the case with the U-18 team), it'd be another story; piecing together a random handful of available times and places into something that works, on the other hand, is much more difficult.

 

[joecct]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Yeah, got a little opaque with my wording there, sorry. It was actually a combination of two effects that I had in mind. First, the number of available dates is relatively limited (the beginning of the season and prior to the resumption of conference play in the winter are when most teams, and particularly quality teams, would prefer to schedule these games). Second, the games would have to be scheduled in a way that made sense travel-wise: for example, it might sound great if an ACHA team heard that St. Norbert was looking for an exhibition opponent on a Friday evening, and Oswego on Saturday, but it'd probably be unfeasible to travel to both, so one of the already limited number of dates would be lost.

So, are you implying that it would be easier for Adrian's club team to get a game against St. Norbert than, say, a top rung MCHA team??

 

[NUProf]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

Yeah, got a little opaque with my wording there, sorry. It was actually a combination of two effects that I had in mind. First, the number of available dates is relatively limited (the beginning of the season and prior to the resumption of conference play in the winter are when most teams, and particularly quality teams, would prefer to schedule these games). Second, the games would have to be scheduled in a way that made sense travel-wise: for example, it might sound great if an ACHA team heard that St. Norbert was looking for an exhibition opponent on a Friday evening, and Oswego on Saturday, but it'd probably be unfeasible to travel to both, so one of the already limited number of dates would be lost.

I just think it would take too much coordination to make such an exhibition "tour" logistically sound: if it were the DIII teams catering to the needs of the exhibition opponent's schedule (as I suspect is often the case with the U-18 team), it'd be another story; piecing together a random handful of available times and places into something that works, on the other hand, is much more difficult.

One way of managing this is for more ACHA teams to be a fourth team in a DIII tournament. We've seen that happen a few times - usually when a DIII invitee backs out and somebody from the ACHA is available to fill the vacancy. This could be done on an intentional basis.

 

[Dyce]

Re: Teams that should look at joining DIII after the moratorium is lifted

One way of managing this is for more ACHA teams to be a fourth team in a DIII tournament. We've seen that happen a few times - usually when a DIII invitee backs out and somebody from the ACHA is available to fill the vacancy. This could be done on an intentional basis.

I believe the problem here (correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not entirely sure on this one) is that one of the participants in the non-ACHA semi would pretty much be stuck with a 24-game schedule. The other semi would work great: the NCAA team could designate it an exhibition and schedule 24 games in addition to the tournament accordingly. The non-ACHA semifinal teams could only schedule 23 additional games, as 24 would put them over the limit if they played DIII opponents in both the semis and finals. And any attempt to designate one of the DIII-DIII games as an exhibition would leave a team with 2 exhibition games on the weekend, another no-no.

As you said, it works well in a pinch (anybody will take 24 games and an exhibition over a cancelled tournament), but it doesn't seem like a very attractive option for teams to enter into knowingly.