Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

[SJHovey]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I disagree somewhat. Bradshaw did what he was asked to do, a rare quality that most QB's would sulk over. If you asked him to do more during a season, he would have. I do remember watching to see if he'd pull the game out in the end. He did on some big occasions. He couldn't have just gotten lucky in 4 superbowls 2 of which against one of the best teams of all time. Facing a lot less pressure than the Dallas defense, Manning has wilted multiple times. I'll throw out there that perhaps Bradshaw was a far better QB than he was allowed to be given the other assets the Steelers had. Put Brady in those SB's as well and who doesn't think he makes an ill advised pick or gets happy feat as soon as he hears footsteps next to him?

I don't think anyone is saying that Bradshaw got lucky.

I grew up on those Steeler's teams. They were dominating when I was getting out of high school and in college. Bradshaw did what he had to do, but they didn't win those games because of Bradshaw.

That Steelers-Vikings Super Bowl was brutal. It was 2-0 at the half. The Steelers ran for 249 yards and passed for 96 yards. They picked off Tark 3 times, got a safety, a couple of fumbles. Terry Hanratty could have played the game and the Steelers were going to win.

Same with the first Dallas Super Bowl. Defensive struggle. Bradshaw complete 9 total passes. But the Steele Curtain makes 3 picks, gets a bunch of sacks, and the Steelers basically handed off to their backs 70% of the plays.

My recollection is that the only Super Bowl truly won by Bradshaw was that second one with Dallas, which was terrific games. He made some great passes. But he was also one Jackie Smith drop away from losing that game.

I'm not minimizing Terry Bradshaw's career. In many ways I think of him as a little grittier form of Bob Griese, another quarterback from that era who was terrific at managing the game, and played with a great cast of players.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Regarding the interceptions and touchdowns, yes, the numbers tended to be closer to one another back then, but even taking that into account, Bradshaw's numbers are poor.

Further, Bradshaw holds the record in the modern era for the worst touchdown to interception ratio for a full season in 1970, when he had 6 TDs and 24 INTs (there was a guy back in 1942 that had a slightly worse ratio).

He was even voted All-Pro only once in his career (1978).

* Bradshaw was the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft via a coin flip between Pittsburgh and Chicago, who both finished 1-13-0 in 1969. So he walked into a horrendous situation and as a rookie, he posted the aforementioned "bad numbers", but in doing so, the hapless Steelers (who would win their first playoff game EVER two years later) posted an improved 5-9-0 record in their first season in the AFC;
* Bradshaw got clocked in the '75 Super Bowl by Dallas' Larry Cole a split second after he dropped an inch-perfect 64 yard TD into Lynn Swann's hands in tight coverage to provide the game-winning points. That's the one where he sustained a serious concussion;
* Bradshaw not only earned All-Pro honors in 1978, but also was named NFL MVP for that season (despite 20 INT's - not that unusual for the era), and was selected the Super Bowl MVP in both 1978 and 1979;
* Bradshaw's Super Bowl numbers included a 58.3% completion percentage, 9 TD's vs. 4 INT's, and eye-popping numbers like 11.1 yards per attempt, and a 112.7 passer rating. Only Joe Montana has better Super Bowl numbers, and both Montana and Bradshaw are 4-0 in the big game. Troy Aikman (3-0 in the big game) is only slightly behind, with 5 TD's, 1 INT, 70.0 completion percentage, 8.6 yards per attempt, and a 111.9 passer rating.
* By comparison ... Brady, while having superior 9 TD/2 INT and 64.4% completion percentage to Bradshaw, produced only 6.48 yards per attempt, and a 93.8 passer rating. Interestingly, Brady has only one (1) 50+ yard completion in nearly 200 Super Bowl attempts, and one (1) other completion for more than 30 yards.

But the best ever remains Bart Starr. More on that later.

 

[walrus]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Comparing QBs from different eras, how do you take into account rule changes?

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

From the "Stop Crying, You Big Baby" File.

http://deadspin.com/nfc-championshi...ource=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Comparing QBs from different eras, how do you take into account rule changes?

Funny you should ask that, wally. Here is something from "Cold Hard Football Facts" which is the single best attempt I've ever seen at balancing the field between the eras at the quarterback position. Lots of familiar names that have been brought up here, and a few that have been overlooked who likely pre-date all of us. It does date back to 2008, but I seriously doubt any of the active folks on the list have done anything since to move signifcantly (if anything, they may have slipped). And guess who (still) comes out on top?

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/

Yup. The guy with the most rings is also (somewhat surprisingly) the guy with the best numbers, too. Bart Starr.

For what it's worth ... I've always been impressed with Otto Graham's career, but I'm not old enough to remember him as more than the guy who Vince Lombardi replaced as the head coach of the Redskins in the late '60's. Probably why some Packers' fans slightly younger than myself only remember Bart Starr as the mediocre head coach of the Packers.

Anyone looking for a good read, I'd highly recommend Bart Starr - America's Quarterback by Keith Dunnavant.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

* Bradshaw was the first overall pick in the 1970 NFL Draft via a coin flip between Pittsburgh and Chicago, who both finished 1-13-0 in 1969. So he walked into a horrendous situation and as a rookie, he posted the aforementioned "bad numbers", but in doing so, the hapless Steelers (who would win their first playoff game EVER two years later) posted an improved 5-9-0 record in their first season in the AFC;
* Bradshaw got clocked in the '75 Super Bowl by Dallas' Larry Cole a split second after he dropped an inch-perfect 64 yard TD into Lynn Swann's hands in tight coverage to provide the game-winning points. That's the one where he sustained a serious concussion;
* Bradshaw not only earned All-Pro honors in 1978, but also was named NFL MVP for that season (despite 20 INT's - not that unusual for the era), and was selected the Super Bowl MVP in both 1978 and 1979;
* Bradshaw's Super Bowl numbers included a 58.3% completion percentage, 9 TD's vs. 4 INT's, and eye-popping numbers like 11.1 yards per attempt, and a 112.7 passer rating. Only Joe Montana has better Super Bowl numbers, and both Montana and Bradshaw are 4-0 in the big game. Troy Aikman (3-0 in the big game) is only slightly behind, with 5 TD's, 1 INT, 70.0 completion percentage, 8.6 yards per attempt, and a 111.9 passer rating.
* By comparison ... Brady, while having superior 9 TD/2 INT and 64.4% completion percentage to Bradshaw, produced only 6.48 yards per attempt, and a 93.8 passer rating. Interestingly, Brady has only one (1) 50+ yard completion in nearly 200 Super Bowl attempts, and one (1) other completion for more than 30 yards.

But the best ever remains Bart Starr. More on that later.

I guess part of it is how heavily you weight his four Super Bowl appearances versus the rest of his career. The Super Bowl is the pinnacle of course, but to me some good Super Bowl numbers (though he didn't even pass that much in the Super Bowls really) don't counterbalance lesser regular season numbers. And if you look at his overall playoff stats, he barely threw more touchdowns than interceptions, 30 to 26. Hey, I like the guy and think he was a very good solid quarterback. I just can't get myself to mention him in the same breathe as the very top echelon of QBs who did (and had to do) a lot more than he did for their teams to see success.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I guess part of it is how heavily you weight his four Super Bowl appearances versus the rest of his career. The Super Bowl is the pinnacle of course, but to me some good Super Bowl numbers (though he didn't even pass that much in the Super Bowls really) don't counterbalance lesser regular season numbers. And if you look at his overall playoff stats, he barely threw more touchdowns than interceptions, 30 to 26. Hey, I like the guy and think he was a very good solid quarterback. I just can't get myself to mention him in the same breathe as the very top echelon of QBs who did (and had to do) a lot more than he did for their teams to see success.

But at Louisiana Tech he backed up Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty - that has to worth something.

ETA: Corrected after being pointed out...

 

[True Blue Fan]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

But at LSU he backed up Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty - that has to worth something.

Louisiana Tech, not LSU

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Louisiana Tech, not LSU

Whoops.

 

[Rover]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

This has been a fun discussion. I never saw Unitas or Bart Starr play unfortunately. Not sure when their careers finished up but it sounds like maybe the early 70's?

 

[jmh]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Agree completely on Favre. His ESPN boosters would never admit it, but that team should have won a lot more Super Bowls than it did. Manning is very similar to Favre. That Pats team wasn't very good although in Favre's defense it was probably better than the '06 Bears. Favre's inability to win more counts against him when compared to the Montana's for the world, regardless of his regular season achievements.

"Favre's inability to win" is not a real thing, it's a creation in people's minds. Favre's propensity to chuck the ball up and hope his receivers make a play, in addition to yielding endless media praise because "he's like a kid out there!", is a real thing that led to a lot of interceptions, that are also a real thing. He's a completely different player from Manning and Montana, who are/were just plain better quarterbacks. His "regular season achievements" are in large part a result of his incredible ability to stay healthy for 16 games year after year; of course he's the career leader in passing yards, he has literally thousands more pass attempts than anybody else, almost twice as many as Montana. But he didn't magically become a different quarterback with a changed "ability to win" in the playoffs, any more than any other quarterback does (including Eli Manning, much as some stupid Giants fans would have people believe). He was just the same quarterback whose propensity to throw aimless balls got capitalized on by the better defenses you see in the playoffs.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

This has been a fun discussion. I never saw Unitas or Bart Starr play unfortunately. Not sure when their careers finished up but it sounds like maybe the early 70's?

I believe both entered the league in 1956 (before my time too!). Starr retired after the 1971 season, as he'd been fighting injuries for the last 5+ years of his career (including the 1967 season and the landmark Ice Bowl game). Unitas arguably should have done the same, but soldiered on for two more seasons, including a regretful decision to finish his career in 1973 as a San Diego Charger.

In Unitas' last season in Baltimore, there was a memorable game where they hosted Joe Namath and the Jets early in the season, in what was the last meeting between the two QB's after Super Bowl III (which Unitas did not start due to after-effects of a separated shoulder, and only played when Earl Morrall "did a Manning" i.e. crapped his pants). Both teams were well past their glory days, and Namath was already pretty close to the end, despite being about 10 years younger than Johnny U. But they duked it out big time in what was probably the last great game either guy ever played, with Johnny U passing for nearly 400 yards, but being outdone by his younger opponent, who threw for 6 TD's and almost 500 yards. Links provided below to the box score and a write-up I found on the game just now:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197209240clt.htm

http://fs64sports.blogspot.com/2010/09/1972-namath-unitas-combine-for-822.html

There is a YouTube video out there from the old "NFL Game of the Week" series, and if you can find it, I guarantee you it will give you goosebumps. A great glimpse into what the game used to be like pre-ESPN.

 

[joecct]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Another view of the game...
http://youtu.be/EIJyoe1fFk8

 

[rufus]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

This has been a fun discussion. I never saw Unitas or Bart Starr play unfortunately. Not sure when their careers finished up but it sounds like maybe the early 70's?

One of the earliest games I can recall watching(for whatever reason, it wasn't til I was 12 or 13 that I began to take an interest in football. Until then, it was just something that made Sundays so there was nothing to watch on tv) was a game between the jets and Colts, Namath before he was completely broken down vs. Unitas in the twilight of his career, maybe 1972-73? It was a barnburner, both put up huge passing numbers for the time, final score was Jets 44-34. Curt Gowdy called that game, and I remember it because I recorded the audio off the tv on my new-fangled portable reel to reel tape recorder.

The intertubes are awesome. here's a box score. Namath was huge.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197209240clt.htm

 

[mookie1995]

O
The intertubes are awesome. here's a box score. Namath was huge.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197209240clt.htm

even more impressive.. the jets missed an extra point that game! and the same day the stillers lost 15-10 to the bungals. stillers lost as their kicker, the infamous roy gerela (who missed a fg in SB 10 and was patted on the head following that by a cowgirl, who was then shoved to the ground by jack lamber!! ) went 1-4 that day in fga!!!

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

One of the earliest games I can recall watching(for whatever reason, it wasn't til I was 12 or 13 that I began to take an interest in football. Until then, it was just something that made Sundays so there was nothing to watch on tv) was a game between the jets and Colts, Namath before he was completely broken down vs. Unitas in the twilight of his career, maybe 1972-73? It was a barnburner, both put up huge passing numbers for the time, final score was Jets 44-34. Curt Gowdy called that game, and I remember it because I recorded the audio off the tv on my new-fangled portable reel to reel tape recorder.

The intertubes are awesome. here's a box score. Namath was huge.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/197209240clt.htm

Here's the link to the YouTube video of the "NFL Game of the Week" - with some minor editorial comments added (not by me - but mostly very accurate, and some entertaining):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjGIIwkEPeM

It's about 20 minutes, but it's great stuff (audio quality excepted). I've heard way too often how Namath was supposedly "only a HOF player due to one game" from folks who never saw him play. To this day, I've never seen a more pure passer EVER. Watch some of the throws he makes on the TD's ... two are with defensive linemen flying in his face, and at least three as back-foot throws which he just flicks throws 40-50 yards downfield almost effortlessly.

I'd also forgotten that Unitas ran the flea-flicker for a TD pass, on virtually the same play that Earl Morrall ran in SB III against the same opponent, where he failed to see a wide-open Jimmy Orr late in the first half on a play that could have turned that game around.

Anyway ... figured I'd share. Enjoy!!

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Michael Sam, a DE for the Missouri Tigers, has announced he's gay... He's projected to be drafted this April...

Ritchie Incognito just facepalmed....


This is going to be the true test of where America stands on this issue

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Michael Sam, a DE for the Missouri Tigers, has announced he's gay... He's projected to be drafted this April...

Ritchie Incognito just facepalmed....


This is going to be the true test of where America stands on this issue

I don't know, I think that it will barely register - meaning that the vast majority will accept and move on.

I hope I'm right.


I mean, I understand the significance of this on some level, but it just seems that we're so far past this being any kind of a controversy.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

I don't know, I think that it will barely register - meaning that the vast majority will accept and move on.

I hope I'm right.


I mean, I understand the significance of this on some level, but it just seems that we're so far past this being any kind of a controversy.

I hope you're right too, but it doesn't sound like it. His draft stock will fall because the media circus that is sure to surround this will be seen as a distraction.

Really good article from Sports Illustrated about it.

"I don't think football is ready for [an openly gay player] just yet," said an NFL player personnel assistant.

Ready or not....here he comes...

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Super Bowl XLVIII and NFL Thread: Sherman's March to Jersey

Michael Sam, a DE for the Missouri Tigers, has announced he's gay... He's projected to be drafted this April...

Ritchie Incognito just facepalmed....


This is going to be the true test of where America stands on this issue

If he's on my team, who cares as long as he's giving the opposing team a really hard time out there.

Enough former players have come out, it really shouldn't be all that shocking anymore. Maybe if it had been a couple of years ago perhaps, but now, eh. Hell, how much of a story line has that Gay NBA guy even been this season? ESPN is all over that league, covers it wall to wall. Where's the big story on that at right now?